Author Alexandra Kitty: Murder In A Sundown Town

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Welcome to True Crime,

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Authors and Extraordinary People,

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the podcast where we bring two passions together.

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The show that gives new meaning to the old adage,

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truth is stranger than fiction.

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And reminding you that there is an extraordinary person in all of us.

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Here is your host,

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David McClam.

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What's going on everybody and welcome to the episode of True Crime,

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Authors and Extraordinary People.

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Of course,

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I'm your man,

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David McClam.

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Hey,

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if you guys haven't already.

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Make sure you're following us on all of our social media.

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One link to a link tree will get you every place you need to go pertaining to the show.

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And as always,

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I want to remind everyone,

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if you are someone who is thinking about hurting yourself or someone else,

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please dial 988.

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You can reach them by text or by voice.

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It is the suicide prevention hotline.

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It will give you the help in which you need.

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And if no one else has told you this today,

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allow me to be the first.

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to tell you that I do care and I do need you to be here.

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There is nothing worth your life.

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All right,

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well,

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today is author day and I have a good one for you.

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I've already warned her that I'm probably going to butcher some of these names.

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So you guys have to bear with me because there is some French in here and when I'm done,

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she can feel free to correct me.

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So here we go.

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She is an award-winning

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Canadian author,

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educator,

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artist,

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and researcher.

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whose work has appeared in Press Time,

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Quill,

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Current,

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El Canada,

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Masanuve,

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Critical Review,

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and Skeptic.

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She was a relationships columnist for the Hamilton Spectator,

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an advice columnist for the Victoria Times Columnist,

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and was a researcher for Cineflix's true crime documentary series,

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A Time to Kill.

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She was the first female recipient of the Arts Award from McMaster University in Canada.

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and is the author of a number of books,

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including Don't Believe It,

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How Lies Become News,

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Outfoxed,

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Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism,

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The Art of Kintsugi,

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The Dramatic Moment of Fate,

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The Life of Sherlock Holmes in the Theater,

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and A Different Track,

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Hospital Trains of the Second World War.

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She is the author of Murder in a Sundown Town.

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Please welcome author

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Alexandra Kitty.

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Hi,

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Alexandra.

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Thank you for being here today.

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Nice to be on here.

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Thank you very much.

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So go ahead,

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scold me,

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tell me what I butchered,

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because I know I saw your face and laughed at me,

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and I tried to pronounce that one name.

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How is that pronounced?

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Maisonneuve.

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New house,

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basically,

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in French.

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So that was the only thing.

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Otherwise,

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it was flawless.

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Oh,

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thank you.

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I appreciate it.

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So before we jump in,

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is there anything else that anyone needs to know about Alexandra Kitty that wasn't covered in your intro?

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No,

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not really.

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You pretty much covered me well.

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I can say I'm a true crime.

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Since I was a kid,

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I was always interested in mysteries and true crime from a more of an emotional standpoint.

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And it was something I've always had interest in,

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but I never thought that I would be doing this as a career.

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That makes two of us.

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I have been into true crime since I've been a young kid.

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Never thought I would have any kind of career doing it.

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But once again,

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here we are,

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and that's what we're doing.

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Only people that really love this genre you will find actually does this.

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So,

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all right.

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So I guess let's jump in and probably kind of touched on it,

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but let's go a little bit deeper.

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What actually got you into true crime?

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As a career or as a passion,

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it was just something my family and I always used to watch.

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We would,

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you know,

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it was one of those appointment TVs for us.

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We would watch true crime.

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I would read about it.

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Because I really felt for the victims.

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Even as a kid,

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to me,

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it was always about empathy.

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Sometimes people want to know about the clues.

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To me,

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it was always about the people who got hurt.

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And then I went into journalism.

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I went to teach and all these other things.

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I was doing these weird and wonderful things.

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And then I saw an ad on LinkedIn.

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They were looking for a researcher for a true crime show called The Time to Kill.

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And I thought,

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I'm going to put my resume in.

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I don't think I qualify for that,

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but...

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I put it in,

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and then I got an interview.

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And then

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I got the job on Friday,

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and then I started working on that following Monday.

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And I found that I really had a propensity from it.

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And it was always interesting.

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You watch true crime TV from one side,

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but putting it together,

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it was a complete shock to me how it was put together,

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what the considerations were,

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what victims were included and excluded,

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and not even on purpose.

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And I thought,

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this is something I really want to...

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you know,

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once I finished,

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I worked there for three seasons.

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I did about eight cases.

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And I thought,

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I really want to explore the ethics of it.

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I want to explore.

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The

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Bible of it,

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the way the structure of it,

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how we come to know things and why certain things,

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people and cases get included and why they get excluded and understanding the fit of a show.

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And that's how I got into going on it way beyond my stint on this program.

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Now,

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I want the audience to remember what you just said about true crime documentaries.

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We're going to touch a lot more into that because this is actually how you wrote.

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The book,

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Murder in the Sundown Town,

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which I found a very interesting way.

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So we're going to get into that here in a minute.

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I also would like to know,

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now you've written a wide range of books.

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How did you come to write these various books that you've written?

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I was looked for in two ways.

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First,

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if I could get a job in something and explore it empirically,

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what I called method research instead of method acting,

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I would go into it,

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get a job in something,

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and then...

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write about it.

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So I wanted to learn about

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Kintsugi, so I did Kintsugi and became a Kintsugi artist and instructor.

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That's how I wrote The Art of Kintsugi.

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I went into journalism in order to conduct experiments as a journalist and then write my books,

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such as Don't Believe It and Unboxed.

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Some of them was just little gaps in history,

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and one of them was a different track,

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Hospital Trains of the Second World War.

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My grandmother was a nurse on a hospital train.

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And I was shocked that there was no other book ever written about hospital trains,

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not in the Second World War,

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First World War ever.

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So I thought,

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well,

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that's a disservice because there were so many nurses.

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You know,

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there were women who laid the tracks to help build the trains,

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man the trains as nurses.

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And we don't have a single book about these women.

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So if I don't,

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if it's not a gap,

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then it's something that I want to experience firsthand so I can write about it intelligently and with empathy.

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Um,

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it's easy to know things from the outside,

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but it's different once you're in there and you have skin in the game.

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Well,

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I haven't read that book yet,

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but I'm going to,

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because I didn't know that women actually did those things in world war two.

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And it seems like no matter where you are in the world,

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the efforts of women is very downplayed in this hidden.

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And when the reality is,

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and a lot of these things,

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if it wasn't for women,

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a lot of things when they got done,

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you know,

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we just had the movie about the first black.

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female battalion that was responsible for getting mail out.

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So thank you for writing that book.

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I will be sure to check that out.

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Audience,

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you should check that one out too.

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And make sure you put that in the show notes as well.

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Now onto your current book,

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the one that I've read.

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I know it came out about 2023,

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I believe.

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So Murder in the

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Sundown Town deals with the murder of young Carol Jenkins.

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It was a case that happened in 1968.

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For those of you guys that don't know,

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it happened in Martinsville,

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Indiana.

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and she was an encyclopedia salesperson.

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So what happened is back in the day,

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they would go door to door to sell people encyclopedias,

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and that's what Carol was doing,

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had to actually move.

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She went from the town she was in to another town,

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which happened to be Martinsville,

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because it was more lucrative over there.

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What made you want to take on

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Carol's case and write about it?

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I was fascinated by her case in a historical standpoint.

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But then when I started working for A Time to Kill,

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I said,

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her case dovetails so perfectly in this format,

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and yet it defies all this.

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This is why we fear so little about her in true crime television.

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Podcasters have taken up the mantle.

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I'm not going to say they haven't.

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But why was Carol's case something that you would think that every true crime show would have discussed?

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This was so shocking.

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Shocking.

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I mean,

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you have here a victim who...

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was a lovely young woman.

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She,

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you know,

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faced challenges.

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You know,

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there's that old Japanese proverb,

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fall down seven times,

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get up eight.

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And she was that kind of person.

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There was a strike where she worked.

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She,

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you know,

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went out,

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got another job.

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I mean,

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this is somebody that would be a role model.

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I mean,

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if this was a fictional story,

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she would have been a heroine.

273
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And yet,

274
00:09:21.141 --> 00:09:24.141
she was killed on her first night on the job.

275
00:09:24.452 --> 00:09:25.874
selling encyclopedias.

276
00:09:26.294 --> 00:09:34.940
And yet you don't have her narrative out there the way that some other murder cases that we know of that happened decades ago,

277
00:09:35.042 --> 00:09:36.401
we're still very familiar with it.

278
00:09:36.784 --> 00:09:38.323
And hers wasn't.

279
00:09:38.324 --> 00:09:42.167
And I thought this is profoundly infuriating and unfair.

280
00:09:42.636 --> 00:09:43.370
And I wanted to go,

281
00:09:43.854 --> 00:09:46.292
what is it about this case that

282
00:09:47.339 --> 00:09:51.011
True Crime TV has almost completely overlooked?

283
00:09:51.058 --> 00:09:53.776
I think there was one episode where she was one of three victims.

284
00:09:53.777 --> 00:09:54.085
victims,

285
00:09:54.767 --> 00:09:56.012
but it was never just her.

286
00:09:57.116 --> 00:09:57.577
And I thought,

287
00:09:58.594 --> 00:10:02.157
Let's look at this from a true crime researcher's perspective,

288
00:10:02.158 --> 00:10:03.198
because when you're the researcher,

289
00:10:03.557 --> 00:10:04.499
you pitch stories,

290
00:10:04.561 --> 00:10:05.503
you get stories,

291
00:10:05.522 --> 00:10:06.565
but you also pitch them.

292
00:10:06.901 --> 00:10:08.722
And this would have been something I would have pitched.

293
00:10:08.940 --> 00:10:12.667
And I know that it wouldn't have been accepted for numerous reasons.

294
00:10:12.745 --> 00:10:14.628
And I was looking at it through that lens.

295
00:10:15.206 --> 00:10:16.987
Why was she ignored?

296
00:10:17.565 --> 00:10:18.300
Unfortunately,

297
00:10:18.800 --> 00:10:22.190
a lot of these cases ignored simply because she's African American.

298
00:10:22.958 --> 00:10:26.522
And that's been the biggest thing for me as a podcaster.

299
00:10:26.541 --> 00:10:27.883
So try to put those cases out there.

300
00:10:27.884 --> 00:10:32.406
I have another show called Extinguish where we deal with just murder and missing cases.

301
00:10:32.852 --> 00:10:33.852
And my partner and I,

302
00:10:34.031 --> 00:10:34.852
we talk about that.

303
00:10:34.853 --> 00:10:41.414
We said all of these other cases that no one hears about because they're African-American or they were drug addicts or they were white,

304
00:10:41.415 --> 00:10:47.258
but they lived in the slums and nobody cares until somebody like yourself who researches it and says,

305
00:10:47.649 --> 00:10:47.977
wow,

306
00:10:48.430 --> 00:10:50.164
why hasn't this case been talked about?

307
00:10:50.227 --> 00:10:50.961
because now...

308
00:10:51.326 --> 00:10:53.206
It should have been solved all these years ago,

309
00:10:53.806 --> 00:10:54.667
but they bury it.

310
00:10:55.186 --> 00:10:57.288
And a lot of it deals with racism,

311
00:10:57.347 --> 00:10:59.409
as you probably found that out while you were writing the book.

312
00:11:00.167 --> 00:11:00.284
Oh,

313
00:11:00.565 --> 00:11:01.128
definitely.

314
00:11:01.331 --> 00:11:02.831
Racism was at the heart of this.

315
00:11:03.269 --> 00:11:03.987
But also,

316
00:11:04.050 --> 00:11:06.370
when you're thinking about this is a historical case.

317
00:11:06.667 --> 00:11:07.347
This isn't,

318
00:11:07.487 --> 00:11:07.769
you know,

319
00:11:08.331 --> 00:11:09.737
we deal with murder every day,

320
00:11:09.769 --> 00:11:12.112
but this one was so important historically.

321
00:11:12.831 --> 00:11:14.612
And yet it has been ignored,

322
00:11:14.784 --> 00:11:15.253
ignored,

323
00:11:15.284 --> 00:11:15.628
ignored.

324
00:11:15.644 --> 00:11:16.425
And yet it has had

325
00:11:16.878 --> 00:11:18.065
Carol Hauser champion.

326
00:11:18.331 --> 00:11:19.706
And that's what I also said.

327
00:11:19.707 --> 00:11:20.456
There were people.

328
00:11:20.730 --> 00:11:21.811
who championed this,

329
00:11:22.170 --> 00:11:23.991
who fought for this.

330
00:11:24.312 --> 00:11:29.155
It was like a losing battle because the Curse of Carol was black.

331
00:11:29.312 --> 00:11:33.374
And also you're dealing with a town that was known as a Sundown town,

332
00:11:33.874 --> 00:11:36.210
where if you were black and you went there at sundown,

333
00:11:36.413 --> 00:11:38.132
your life was in danger.

334
00:11:38.976 --> 00:11:40.038
And here's a young woman,

335
00:11:40.694 --> 00:11:41.351
very pleasant,

336
00:11:41.398 --> 00:11:42.351
not harming anyone,

337
00:11:42.413 --> 00:11:46.741
going in to earn an honest day's pay and gets killed the first night she's in there.

338
00:11:47.210 --> 00:11:47.330
Now,

339
00:11:47.331 --> 00:11:50.473
I don't want to give too much of the book away because I want everybody to go read this book.

340
00:11:51.133 --> 00:11:52.575
It is a great book,

341
00:11:53.255 --> 00:11:54.997
and I'm not going to be over political,

342
00:11:55.157 --> 00:11:57.602
but in the times that we are currently in,

343
00:11:58.258 --> 00:12:03.008
I always try to find things that are still relevant to the time.

344
00:12:03.548 --> 00:12:06.469
Janet Jackson wrote Rhythm Nation more than 30 plus years ago,

345
00:12:06.735 --> 00:12:08.407
and it's still relevant today,

346
00:12:09.048 --> 00:12:10.266
just like this book.

347
00:12:10.829 --> 00:12:12.329
But what I wanted to point out was,

348
00:12:12.829 --> 00:12:13.454
is in the book,

349
00:12:13.886 --> 00:12:15.528
You started getting a lot of excuses from people,

350
00:12:15.627 --> 00:12:15.768
right?

351
00:12:15.787 --> 00:12:16.069
They're like,

352
00:12:16.070 --> 00:12:16.248
well,

353
00:12:16.268 --> 00:12:23.274
we don't think it was racism because the fact that it was said that she was sexually approached and maybe the guy just wanted to do it and she wouldn't.

354
00:12:23.836 --> 00:12:24.875
Did you buy any of that?

355
00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:31.204
How much of that do you feel was because the color of her skin versus somebody trying to have a sexual relationship with her?

356
00:12:31.563 --> 00:12:38.204
I think it was zero percent based on her gender and 100 percent based on her race.

357
00:12:38.610 --> 00:12:40.579
This was a pure hate crime,

358
00:12:40.750 --> 00:12:41.500
plain and simple.

359
00:12:42.313 --> 00:12:42.719
and

360
00:12:43.814 --> 00:12:45.955
But you had a town that was in perpetual denial.

361
00:12:46.375 --> 00:12:46.635
I mean,

362
00:12:46.735 --> 00:12:47.436
even today,

363
00:12:47.834 --> 00:12:51.979
they're in denial that this was a racist attack.

364
00:12:52.033 --> 00:12:52.299
I mean,

365
00:12:52.377 --> 00:12:53.057
abrasively.

366
00:12:53.737 --> 00:12:54.619
We can talk about,

367
00:12:54.674 --> 00:12:54.893
yes,

368
00:12:54.940 --> 00:13:04.502
her gender in that you had the killers who thought they could take her because she was so petite and by herself and isolated.

369
00:13:05.346 --> 00:13:06.315
And that so much,

370
00:13:06.455 --> 00:13:06.799
yes.

371
00:13:07.283 --> 00:13:08.737
But this was purely,

372
00:13:08.924 --> 00:13:11.455
purely out of cowardice.

373
00:13:12.342 --> 00:13:13.343
based in racism.

374
00:13:13.864 --> 00:13:15.024
Now we'll tell the audience,

375
00:13:15.165 --> 00:13:16.245
I ain't going to give it away.

376
00:13:16.288 --> 00:13:18.026
It's not a cold case,

377
00:13:18.589 --> 00:13:22.132
but it didn't turn out the way that you think that it turned out either.

378
00:13:22.811 --> 00:13:26.038
So you guys need to go read the book to the end.

379
00:13:26.116 --> 00:13:28.038
I never give away my author's books at the end.

380
00:13:28.436 --> 00:13:31.374
It is a compelling story that you have to read and then spread it.

381
00:13:31.921 --> 00:13:33.155
You need to spread this case.

382
00:13:33.702 --> 00:13:35.999
Now Martinsville was known as a sundown town.

383
00:13:36.390 --> 00:13:40.015
Do you feel like some of those elements is still there today?

384
00:13:40.577 --> 00:13:41.015
I think...

385
00:13:41.842 --> 00:13:43.343
It is in many ways,

386
00:13:44.484 --> 00:13:44.745
you know,

387
00:13:44.845 --> 00:13:49.011
somebody as simple as trying to put a plaque in her honor in that town.

388
00:13:49.249 --> 00:13:50.089
They didn't want it.

389
00:13:50.090 --> 00:13:51.488
They fought it for years.

390
00:13:52.035 --> 00:13:52.316
I mean,

391
00:13:52.370 --> 00:13:55.035
some young woman died here.

392
00:13:55.331 --> 00:13:55.597
You know,

393
00:13:55.636 --> 00:13:56.917
you failed this woman.

394
00:13:56.941 --> 00:14:00.988
You would think the very least is that you could put a plaque.

395
00:14:01.769 --> 00:14:04.160
And the answer was fighting,

396
00:14:04.285 --> 00:14:04.644
fighting,

397
00:14:04.738 --> 00:14:05.144
fighting.

398
00:14:05.472 --> 00:14:09.003
So that is what I found more interesting.

399
00:14:09.650 --> 00:14:35.416
uh the town from the beginning said no we're not a sundown town and yet in a newspaper article they said well and this was in 1968 to go well there was a group of uh black salesmen who came and we told them well it's you know it's sundown you should leave and this is almost a verbatim quote but we're not a sundown town there's denial and then there's denial and this is well we know we are but we're not going to admit it because if we admit it we have to uh say we're less than perfect,

400
00:14:35.417 --> 00:14:36.994
then we have to do something about it.

401
00:14:37.135 --> 00:14:37.276
Yeah,

402
00:14:37.277 --> 00:14:38.073
and just to...

403
00:14:38.326 --> 00:14:39.528
Kind of back you up on that,

404
00:14:40.170 --> 00:14:40.769
the Nils,

405
00:14:40.830 --> 00:14:43.133
who's somebody you guys will get to know when you read this book,

406
00:14:43.617 --> 00:14:46.078
they were all in on trying to help Carol.

407
00:14:46.101 --> 00:14:48.223
They were all in on trying to get her case solved,

408
00:14:48.301 --> 00:14:49.746
all in on getting people put to jail.

409
00:14:50.207 --> 00:14:57.340
It was the Nils that in 2014 actually proposed that a monument be put in Martinsville in Carol's memory.

410
00:14:58.144 --> 00:14:59.185
The plans got scrapped,

411
00:14:59.286 --> 00:14:59.485
right?

412
00:14:59.526 --> 00:15:03.831
Because Norman Voiles said that he started getting flack about it.

413
00:15:03.889 --> 00:15:06.335
And he was the commissioner at that time.

414
00:15:06.694 --> 00:15:10.178
So it is very true that there was people out there that was trying to help her.

415
00:15:10.233 --> 00:15:11.460
So that's why I tell everybody,

416
00:15:12.217 --> 00:15:13.280
because I get it from both ends.

417
00:15:13.421 --> 00:15:15.803
Everybody who's white is not racist.

418
00:15:16.007 --> 00:15:16.382
Everybody,

419
00:15:16.475 --> 00:15:16.741
you know,

420
00:15:16.788 --> 00:15:18.397
they want to help out and do things.

421
00:15:19.069 --> 00:15:19.303
Now,

422
00:15:19.522 --> 00:15:22.147
you wrote this book in a very interesting way.

423
00:15:23.288 --> 00:15:24.210
So interesting.

424
00:15:24.648 --> 00:15:25.829
that I told my partner,

425
00:15:25.869 --> 00:15:26.529
LaDonna Humphrey,

426
00:15:26.550 --> 00:15:31.654
she has to read this book for no other reason because you were talking about documentaries,

427
00:15:31.736 --> 00:15:33.158
which is what she does as well.

428
00:15:34.096 --> 00:15:40.080
You gave away some very prominent trade secrets that Hollywood likes to keep close to the vest on how these things are written.

429
00:15:40.885 --> 00:15:41.791
Why did you do that?

430
00:15:41.838 --> 00:15:43.572
And did you get any backlash from that?

431
00:15:44.026 --> 00:15:45.510
I haven't gotten backlash.

432
00:15:45.572 --> 00:15:47.776
I think a lot of researchers,

433
00:15:47.807 --> 00:15:48.385
for instance,

434
00:15:48.713 --> 00:15:49.307
people like me,

435
00:15:50.791 --> 00:15:51.979
they fight for this.

436
00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:54.322
A lot of times what ends up in the air is not what

437
00:15:54.896 --> 00:15:56.878
People who research these current cases,

438
00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:58.079
because you deal with the victims,

439
00:15:58.520 --> 00:15:58.901
victims'

440
00:15:58.940 --> 00:15:59.460
families,

441
00:15:59.461 --> 00:16:00.581
you deal with the detectives,

442
00:16:00.582 --> 00:16:05.049
the prosecutors who stay in touch with these families years after it's happened.

443
00:16:05.510 --> 00:16:06.651
So you advocate,

444
00:16:06.690 --> 00:16:07.526
you advocate.

445
00:16:07.667 --> 00:16:08.589
And I thought,

446
00:16:08.590 --> 00:16:08.807
you know,

447
00:16:08.808 --> 00:16:11.651
a lot of people don't understand how true crime is constructed.

448
00:16:12.354 --> 00:16:16.323
And this is how television does its thing.

449
00:16:16.995 --> 00:16:21.667
And if we're aware of how television shapes the narrative,

450
00:16:22.542 --> 00:16:24.432
and there's people who fall in the gaps.

451
00:16:24.916 --> 00:16:27.719
Once viewers understand how this happens,

452
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:28.239
they can say,

453
00:16:28.341 --> 00:16:28.460
oh,

454
00:16:28.479 --> 00:16:29.579
this isn't acceptable.

455
00:16:30.083 --> 00:16:33.688
Or if some news show comes up that defies those confines,

456
00:16:33.962 --> 00:16:35.290
then people have an option.

457
00:16:35.805 --> 00:16:42.290
And they realize how sometimes their understanding of true crime is totally shaped by what they see.

458
00:16:42.680 --> 00:16:42.899
I mean,

459
00:16:42.900 --> 00:16:45.540
we talk about the missing or white woman syndrome,

460
00:16:45.837 --> 00:16:47.759
where if you look at a lot of true crime shows,

461
00:16:47.993 --> 00:16:50.680
you would think that this was an absolute crisis.

462
00:16:50.774 --> 00:16:54.259
And yet this is not the majority of people who get killed.

463
00:16:54.628 --> 00:17:11.066
every or get murdered every year but you wouldn't know it watching true crime tv so just let's wait a little bit from what you were doing you keep mentioning and you said in the book they have certain crimes that they would say okay this deserves a documentary did

464
00:17:11.097 --> 00:17:23.535
you have to go to bat for carol's story what was it like when you wanted this story to be done or when they called you on it i this one wasn't uh one of the ones i could pitch because we had certain parameters that the original...

465
00:17:25.024 --> 00:17:26.845
the detectives had to go on the show.

466
00:17:26.925 --> 00:17:33.229
So her case would have been knocked out right from the beginning because you couldn't get the lead detective to,

467
00:17:33.987 --> 00:17:35.050
even on the cold case file,

468
00:17:35.051 --> 00:17:36.745
to give an on-it care interview.

469
00:17:37.268 --> 00:17:40.104
And this is where a lot of cases fall through the cracks.

470
00:17:40.151 --> 00:17:42.909
If the lead detective doesn't want to give an interview,

471
00:17:44.081 --> 00:17:45.003
for whatever reason,

472
00:17:45.222 --> 00:17:47.128
it's gone.

473
00:17:47.362 --> 00:17:48.362
You can't do the story.

474
00:17:48.722 --> 00:17:49.393
So Carol,

475
00:17:49.534 --> 00:17:51.628
I would not be able to even pitch because they would say,

476
00:17:51.690 --> 00:17:51.893
well,

477
00:17:52.128 --> 00:17:53.331
did you get the lead detective?

478
00:17:53.492 --> 00:17:54.733
And the answer would be no.

479
00:17:55.694 --> 00:17:56.435
And they would say,

480
00:17:56.436 --> 00:17:56.595
okay,

481
00:17:56.596 --> 00:17:57.255
you can't do it.

482
00:17:57.415 --> 00:18:07.645
And yet this is such a historically important case that you would think that any true crime show would jump at the chance of covering her case because there's so many nuances.

483
00:18:07.669 --> 00:18:08.685
There's so many layers.

484
00:18:09.794 --> 00:18:10.528
It's riveting.

485
00:18:10.653 --> 00:18:10.950
I mean,

486
00:18:11.075 --> 00:18:12.856
Carol herself was a riveting figure.

487
00:18:13.294 --> 00:18:14.575
And you would think you would want,

488
00:18:15.153 --> 00:18:19.372
people would want to know our television show would want to cover this case.

489
00:18:21.225 --> 00:18:25.750
A lot of times you don't know if the detective might have issues,

490
00:18:26.590 --> 00:18:28.750
might have prejudice and stereotypes.

491
00:18:28.751 --> 00:18:30.375
They don't want to talk about certain cases.

492
00:18:30.758 --> 00:18:31.578
And you don't know that.

493
00:18:32.133 --> 00:18:33.055
So when you're going in,

494
00:18:33.094 --> 00:18:37.023
you're going in with a lot of yeses and nos.

495
00:18:37.024 --> 00:18:37.773
You can't do this.

496
00:18:37.820 --> 00:18:38.586
You can't do that.

497
00:18:38.664 --> 00:18:39.617
This just doesn't fit.

498
00:18:40.008 --> 00:18:43.742
And you can move the goalposts a little and they will say no.

499
00:18:44.492 --> 00:18:48.398
So this is why cases like Carol don't get on the air.

500
00:18:48.898 --> 00:18:49.852
Since you've written this book,

501
00:18:50.208 --> 00:18:55.409
Have you seen anyone else's podcast or otherwise that has covered Carol's case?

502
00:18:55.968 --> 00:18:59.932
I've seen podcasts and I've seen there is a recent,

503
00:18:59.971 --> 00:19:00.487
I understand,

504
00:19:00.550 --> 00:19:01.628
documentary on her.

505
00:19:01.667 --> 00:19:03.807
It came post after my book.

506
00:19:04.229 --> 00:19:04.354
So

507
00:19:04.932 --> 00:19:08.276
Carol is not forgotten.

508
00:19:08.776 --> 00:19:18.354
And it's really wonderful to see that people are talking about her and that they're reading about her and that we're not.

509
00:19:18.812 --> 00:19:20.072
that she hasn't been forgotten.

510
00:19:20.092 --> 00:19:22.314
I think that's important because,

511
00:19:23.333 --> 00:19:23.571
you know,

512
00:19:24.212 --> 00:19:28.571
this is somebody you could totally relate to even in 2025.

513
00:19:28.876 --> 00:19:29.134
You know,

514
00:19:29.135 --> 00:19:29.954
the gig economy,

515
00:19:30.556 --> 00:19:34.454
she had to take a gig to make ends meet because there was a strike.

516
00:19:35.290 --> 00:19:37.462
There was a lot of civil unrest at the time.

517
00:19:38.321 --> 00:19:40.853
She was a young woman making her way in the world,

518
00:19:41.931 --> 00:19:43.118
being very independent.

519
00:19:43.150 --> 00:19:44.556
She had hopes and dreams,

520
00:19:44.978 --> 00:19:46.962
and she had every

521
00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:57.855
wonderful quality a person can have and she got punished for it and that's something that you know we talk about fairness or a happy ending well where was carol's

522
00:19:58.830 --> 00:19:59.531
Even in death,

523
00:20:00.132 --> 00:20:01.692
it wasn't fair.

524
00:20:01.693 --> 00:20:01.792
Now,

525
00:20:01.793 --> 00:20:05.058
I know the one thing that haunts me about the case,

526
00:20:05.136 --> 00:20:06.097
and I'll be honest with you,

527
00:20:06.179 --> 00:20:09.640
I didn't know anything about this case until I read your book.

528
00:20:10.218 --> 00:20:11.562
And my number one question to myself was,

529
00:20:11.624 --> 00:20:13.148
how come I never heard about this case?

530
00:20:14.046 --> 00:20:19.523
That shows you just how either camouflaged or hidden that it is when it's in plain view,

531
00:20:19.632 --> 00:20:19.788
right?

532
00:20:19.789 --> 00:20:21.616
So I went and looked up Carol Jenkins'

533
00:20:22.007 --> 00:20:24.413
whole Wikipedia page on the thing,

534
00:20:24.476 --> 00:20:24.694
right?

535
00:20:25.550 --> 00:20:30.373
But the one thing that haunts me about it is why would they let her go by herself?

536
00:20:30.994 --> 00:20:33.017
Knowing where she was at,

537
00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:35.060
why would you even take that chance?

538
00:20:35.076 --> 00:20:35.318
You're like,

539
00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:35.599
okay,

540
00:20:35.678 --> 00:20:36.865
I'm going to go this way.

541
00:20:36.959 --> 00:20:37.560
You go this way.

542
00:20:37.584 --> 00:20:38.521
We meet back here.

543
00:20:39.724 --> 00:20:40.521
Has that haunted you?

544
00:20:40.607 --> 00:20:42.568
Have you really thought about that a lot after writing the book?

545
00:20:42.834 --> 00:20:45.053
I thought about that nonstop.

546
00:20:45.146 --> 00:20:47.115
That was beyond irresponsible.

547
00:20:47.131 --> 00:20:47.396
I mean,

548
00:20:47.397 --> 00:20:49.099
her and her friend,

549
00:20:49.490 --> 00:20:52.553
she wasn't the only black saleswoman that night.

550
00:20:52.554 --> 00:20:53.178
It was her friend,

551
00:20:53.631 --> 00:20:54.021
Paula,

552
00:20:54.037 --> 00:20:54.678
who...

553
00:20:54.954 --> 00:20:56.175
also was there that night.

554
00:20:56.215 --> 00:20:57.237
She got them the job.

555
00:20:57.295 --> 00:21:01.120
And both of them were so scared that they wanted to buy some sort of protection.

556
00:21:01.881 --> 00:21:08.526
And because that she knew about the problems of Martinsville because of her brother playing basketball there.

557
00:21:08.588 --> 00:21:10.088
So she was very scared.

558
00:21:10.612 --> 00:21:14.620
And not only did this person who was in charge leave her alone,

559
00:21:14.870 --> 00:21:16.135
he left Paula alone,

560
00:21:16.370 --> 00:21:18.917
who was also harassed that night.

561
00:21:19.776 --> 00:21:23.604
The only difference is Paula did not get attacked and Carol was killed.

562
00:21:24.114 --> 00:21:25.376
So when you think about this,

563
00:21:25.415 --> 00:21:26.337
here's two young girls.

564
00:21:26.556 --> 00:21:26.958
First,

565
00:21:27.016 --> 00:21:27.759
they're not girls.

566
00:21:27.760 --> 00:21:28.516
They were young women.

567
00:21:28.618 --> 00:21:30.141
But when you're my age,

568
00:21:30.181 --> 00:21:31.743
everybody who's 20 is a kid.

569
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:33.063
But,

570
00:21:34.602 --> 00:21:34.923
you know,

571
00:21:35.243 --> 00:21:36.485
here's two young women.

572
00:21:36.610 --> 00:21:36.727
And,

573
00:21:36.728 --> 00:21:36.923
you know,

574
00:21:36.970 --> 00:21:37.688
if it was me,

575
00:21:38.071 --> 00:21:38.751
I would have said,

576
00:21:38.806 --> 00:21:39.071
okay,

577
00:21:39.391 --> 00:21:41.391
we don't have to cover all four quadrants.

578
00:21:41.813 --> 00:21:43.657
You and I will go here,

579
00:21:43.829 --> 00:21:47.329
and the other young man and you will go over together.

580
00:21:47.876 --> 00:21:50.126
That would have been the responsible thing to do.

581
00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:53.157
But I think this young man who is in charge.

582
00:21:53.622 --> 00:21:54.883
was following the rules,

583
00:21:54.963 --> 00:22:01.049
not understanding because he couldn't empathize and put himself in somebody else's shoes at the very best.

584
00:22:01.151 --> 00:22:01.670
At the worst,

585
00:22:01.749 --> 00:22:03.053
I don't know what was his motive.

586
00:22:03.389 --> 00:22:06.475
That should have never happened at all.

587
00:22:07.077 --> 00:22:08.374
She should have never been left alone.

588
00:22:08.858 --> 00:22:17.272
So do you think that Carol was picked because of the fact that she was petite and Polly was the easiest one to get away with snatching?

589
00:22:18.100 --> 00:22:18.600
I think so.

590
00:22:19.084 --> 00:22:20.006
She was petite.

591
00:22:20.913 --> 00:22:21.428
She was,

592
00:22:21.569 --> 00:22:22.084
I'm sure.

593
00:22:22.858 --> 00:22:27.883
nervous because she understood Martinsville a little better than the other people there.

594
00:22:28.605 --> 00:22:31.469
There were three other people she knew because of her brother,

595
00:22:32.367 --> 00:22:33.187
and she was scared.

596
00:22:33.711 --> 00:22:38.437
And I think she was just targeted because she was alone,

597
00:22:38.570 --> 00:22:39.422
she was petite,

598
00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:44.219
and that she was probably very afraid,

599
00:22:44.515 --> 00:22:45.437
I don't blame her,

600
00:22:46.187 --> 00:22:47.828
and that she was marked.

601
00:22:48.078 --> 00:22:49.390
And it wasn't anything she did,

602
00:22:49.391 --> 00:22:50.219
It wasn't her fault.

603
00:22:50.265 --> 00:22:51.000
At the end of the day,

604
00:22:51.140 --> 00:22:52.172
she was marked because...

605
00:22:52.618 --> 00:22:55.459
Somebody was just an evil person.

606
00:22:55.998 --> 00:22:57.459
And what was he doing there?

607
00:22:57.600 --> 00:22:58.721
We know what she was doing there.

608
00:22:58.740 --> 00:22:59.658
She was having a job,

609
00:22:59.701 --> 00:23:00.459
being productive,

610
00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:01.396
a member of society.

611
00:23:01.443 --> 00:23:02.498
But what was he doing there?

612
00:23:03.123 --> 00:23:04.201
So that's the question.

613
00:23:04.584 --> 00:23:10.342
What was this person that should have never actually even been free of being there?

614
00:23:10.936 --> 00:23:12.904
Is any of Carol's family still alive?

615
00:23:12.905 --> 00:23:13.264
And if so,

616
00:23:13.389 --> 00:23:14.779
have you had the opportunity to talk to them?

617
00:23:15.639 --> 00:23:15.764
No,

618
00:23:15.842 --> 00:23:16.279
I haven't.

619
00:23:16.311 --> 00:23:17.607
But her stepfather,

620
00:23:17.717 --> 00:23:19.139
he passed away.

621
00:23:19.626 --> 00:23:25.553
And he was the one that hired a private investigator trying to get her case reopened.

622
00:23:26.194 --> 00:23:27.753
Her family constantly tried.

623
00:23:27.754 --> 00:23:34.284
They would put advertising every year at the mark of her anniversary of her death so that people,

624
00:23:34.643 --> 00:23:35.182
the police,

625
00:23:36.057 --> 00:23:40.339
were not allowed to forget about her and then just let her case languish.

626
00:23:40.682 --> 00:23:42.807
So her family did as much as they could.

627
00:23:44.667 --> 00:23:45.151
and

628
00:23:46.954 --> 00:23:47.274
You know,

629
00:23:47.675 --> 00:23:51.857
it was decades before we actually had some sort of movement.

630
00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:52.420
Well,

631
00:23:52.439 --> 00:23:53.822
I think the reason for that,

632
00:23:53.900 --> 00:23:54.080
too,

633
00:23:54.201 --> 00:23:55.842
is kind of like you said in the beginning.

634
00:23:56.803 --> 00:23:57.482
Back then,

635
00:23:57.647 --> 00:23:59.147
we didn't have social media.

636
00:23:59.506 --> 00:24:01.928
There was no such thing as podcasts.

637
00:24:01.929 --> 00:24:04.897
It wasn't people like me that I would find a case of this and run with it.

638
00:24:05.709 --> 00:24:07.850
I've actually been a part of cases where I've tried,

639
00:24:08.131 --> 00:24:08.334
you know,

640
00:24:08.335 --> 00:24:13.615
I've done shows on and tried to get it to reopen because the injustice behind it was just horrible.

641
00:24:15.147 --> 00:24:15.881
we know that

642
00:24:16.418 --> 00:24:22.986
Probably the justice that we seek for Carol's case will never come to fruition because the outcome of that,

643
00:24:23.404 --> 00:24:27.346
the guys that were accused of this does have family.

644
00:24:27.893 --> 00:24:28.393
Matter of fact,

645
00:24:28.394 --> 00:24:32.775
I think his daughter was instrumental in getting him caught up.

646
00:24:33.369 --> 00:24:34.760
What do you feel about his family?

647
00:24:34.869 --> 00:24:36.619
Do you feel like sorry for them?

648
00:24:36.713 --> 00:24:37.979
Have you talked to any of those guys?

649
00:24:37.994 --> 00:24:38.463
How does that go?

650
00:24:39.057 --> 00:24:39.182
No,

651
00:24:39.807 --> 00:24:41.541
they were in denial.

652
00:24:41.666 --> 00:24:41.947
I mean,

653
00:24:42.932 --> 00:24:44.041
I don't blame his daughter.

654
00:24:44.150 --> 00:24:44.510
She was...

655
00:24:45.295 --> 00:24:49.223
a child when that happened and that would be traumatizing and she was terrified of him.

656
00:24:49.844 --> 00:24:51.687
But when he passed away,

657
00:24:51.906 --> 00:24:53.648
if you read his obituary,

658
00:24:53.649 --> 00:24:58.937
you would know that he was accused of murder.

659
00:24:59.770 --> 00:25:00.191
And

660
00:25:01.151 --> 00:25:03.955
I think that that was a grave injustice.

661
00:25:03.994 --> 00:25:04.233
I mean,

662
00:25:04.834 --> 00:25:06.576
we know what he did.

663
00:25:06.756 --> 00:25:10.920
And when a family turns a blind eye to it,

664
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:11.522
you know,

665
00:25:11.584 --> 00:25:13.842
you're not doing them any favors.

666
00:25:13.881 --> 00:25:15.951
You're not doing your family any favors.

667
00:25:15.952 --> 00:25:18.295
And you're certainly not doing society any favors.

668
00:25:18.795 --> 00:25:21.358
People want to not talk about the dark stuff,

669
00:25:21.389 --> 00:25:22.170
the bad stuff.

670
00:25:23.045 --> 00:25:23.608
And they should.

671
00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:25.201
If you,

672
00:25:25.654 --> 00:25:25.889
you know,

673
00:25:25.890 --> 00:25:28.733
if you see yourself as a decent person.

674
00:25:29.298 --> 00:25:29.438
Yeah.

675
00:25:29.558 --> 00:25:29.959
Sometimes.

676
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:30.279
Yeah.

677
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:31.560
It's the luck of the draw.

678
00:25:31.982 --> 00:25:32.562
You have,

679
00:25:32.783 --> 00:25:33.001
you know,

680
00:25:33.081 --> 00:25:35.845
somebody in your family who's done something horrible and,

681
00:25:36.286 --> 00:25:36.525
you know,

682
00:25:36.564 --> 00:25:37.583
to least make amends,

683
00:25:37.584 --> 00:25:40.232
you should acknowledge that's what happened.

684
00:25:40.349 --> 00:25:41.888
I think in my career,

685
00:25:42.029 --> 00:25:47.076
I only know of two cases where the children were not in denial.

686
00:25:47.294 --> 00:25:48.294
That was Jim Jones.

687
00:25:48.357 --> 00:25:48.591
You know,

688
00:25:48.622 --> 00:25:48.919
his son,

689
00:25:48.997 --> 00:25:52.966
Steven Jones has spoken about it many times and the daughter of BTK.

690
00:25:53.701 --> 00:25:54.497
She was shocked,

691
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:57.904
but she never denied that that happened.

692
00:25:58.622 --> 00:26:01.945
But like in the cold case that I've covered and we've worked on for five years,

693
00:26:02.466 --> 00:26:05.330
the Black Dahlia case very much denies the beginning.

694
00:26:05.369 --> 00:26:05.568
Right.

695
00:26:05.607 --> 00:26:07.388
Because we know we believe we know who did it.

696
00:26:07.389 --> 00:26:08.373
His name is George Hodel.

697
00:26:08.388 --> 00:26:09.857
He has a son named Stephen Hodel,

698
00:26:10.412 --> 00:26:13.435
who became a detective because his sister called to say,

699
00:26:13.474 --> 00:26:13.615
hey,

700
00:26:13.654 --> 00:26:15.794
I think dad is responsible for this murder.

701
00:26:16.279 --> 00:26:21.482
So he became a LAPD cop to prove that his dad was not the killer.

702
00:26:22.138 --> 00:26:23.748
But the deeper he got into it,

703
00:26:24.091 --> 00:26:26.076
the more he could not deny it anymore.

704
00:26:26.614 --> 00:26:30.178
and became the biggest catalyst of saying he wrote like three books about it.

705
00:26:30.858 --> 00:26:30.979
So

706
00:26:31.901 --> 00:26:32.799
I think what it is,

707
00:26:32.881 --> 00:26:35.561
is my dad was a bad guy.

708
00:26:35.584 --> 00:26:37.061
He didn't murder anybody that I know of,

709
00:26:37.225 --> 00:26:41.092
but it's one of those things where you feel like if I admit to this,

710
00:26:41.225 --> 00:26:43.608
maybe I'm going to turn up to be just like my dad.

711
00:26:43.717 --> 00:26:45.092
Maybe he was going to think that I am,

712
00:26:45.093 --> 00:26:46.045
I'm going to get shunned.

713
00:26:46.530 --> 00:26:47.420
So we have to deny,

714
00:26:47.467 --> 00:26:47.748
deny,

715
00:26:47.780 --> 00:26:50.264
deny until it comes to a point to where we can't anymore.

716
00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:51.092
Um,

717
00:26:51.155 --> 00:26:52.967
so I do applaud his daughter.

718
00:26:53.077 --> 00:26:54.608
I know how hard that it was,

719
00:26:55.108 --> 00:26:55.358
you know,

720
00:26:55.389 --> 00:26:56.061
to bring that.

721
00:26:56.198 --> 00:26:59.462
to light and to finally bring him into justice.

722
00:27:00.423 --> 00:27:01.684
Where are you now on

723
00:27:02.645 --> 00:27:03.727
Carol Jenkins's case?

724
00:27:03.766 --> 00:27:05.306
How do you feel now the book has been written?

725
00:27:05.470 --> 00:27:10.235
What kind of feedback have you received from everyone?

726
00:27:10.852 --> 00:27:12.227
Very positive feedback,

727
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:18.024
especially because there are people who are interested in true crime television and how it's constructed.

728
00:27:18.040 --> 00:27:20.306
And a lot of times it's not obvious.

729
00:27:20.649 --> 00:27:22.102
We take things for granted.

730
00:27:23.009 --> 00:27:25.665
But there's also people who understood that.

731
00:27:25.790 --> 00:27:27.131
we can't forget about Carol.

732
00:27:27.592 --> 00:27:30.016
We can never forget about Carol because,

733
00:27:30.516 --> 00:27:30.773
you know,

734
00:27:30.934 --> 00:27:31.637
she is,

735
00:27:32.258 --> 00:27:32.496
you know,

736
00:27:32.535 --> 00:27:33.699
was the dream daughter.

737
00:27:33.820 --> 00:27:34.516
She was,

738
00:27:35.281 --> 00:27:35.516
you know,

739
00:27:35.539 --> 00:27:37.719
the role model for young women.

740
00:27:38.078 --> 00:27:38.344
I mean,

741
00:27:38.406 --> 00:27:39.641
so many young women right now,

742
00:27:39.703 --> 00:27:40.188
even now,

743
00:27:40.703 --> 00:27:41.703
live Carol's life.

744
00:27:41.742 --> 00:27:41.922
They,

745
00:27:42.172 --> 00:27:42.422
you know,

746
00:27:42.781 --> 00:27:43.141
pick up,

747
00:27:43.328 --> 00:27:45.062
they are very independent,

748
00:27:45.953 --> 00:27:46.938
the chips are down,

749
00:27:47.016 --> 00:27:47.391
they don't,

750
00:27:47.453 --> 00:27:48.969
they just pull themselves together,

751
00:27:49.656 --> 00:27:51.891
find something else and keep plowing through.

752
00:27:52.391 --> 00:27:54.125
She did everything right.

753
00:27:54.678 --> 00:27:55.219
that night.

754
00:27:55.459 --> 00:27:58.402
And it still went horribly wrong.

755
00:27:58.984 --> 00:28:01.406
And we always have to keep that in mind,

756
00:28:01.805 --> 00:28:04.945
that a lot of people like that just world hypothesis.

757
00:28:04.984 --> 00:28:05.125
Well,

758
00:28:05.226 --> 00:28:06.508
what was the victim doing here?

759
00:28:06.570 --> 00:28:06.726
Well,

760
00:28:06.750 --> 00:28:07.633
she was earning a living.

761
00:28:08.031 --> 00:28:08.992
What was he doing here?

762
00:28:09.109 --> 00:28:10.297
What was the killer doing there?

763
00:28:10.609 --> 00:28:11.875
We know what she was doing.

764
00:28:12.156 --> 00:28:13.437
And we also know what he was doing.

765
00:28:13.719 --> 00:28:18.000
So why are we focusing on why was she doing when she was being productive?

766
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:20.844
She was helping her family.

767
00:28:20.890 --> 00:28:22.890
She was making her way in the world.

768
00:28:22.891 --> 00:28:24.094
She had hopes and dreams.

769
00:28:24.470 --> 00:28:24.750
I mean,

770
00:28:24.810 --> 00:28:25.591
she did not,

771
00:28:25.690 --> 00:28:25.990
you know,

772
00:28:26.610 --> 00:28:27.911
gnash her teeth and said,

773
00:28:27.972 --> 00:28:28.350
why me?

774
00:28:28.472 --> 00:28:28.753
She goes,

775
00:28:29.093 --> 00:28:31.253
I'm going to go and I'm going to get myself another job.

776
00:28:31.393 --> 00:28:33.893
And I'm just something totally different.

777
00:28:34.472 --> 00:28:36.253
She was used to working in a factory.

778
00:28:36.831 --> 00:28:37.433
And she goes,

779
00:28:37.434 --> 00:28:37.550
well,

780
00:28:37.551 --> 00:28:38.573
I'm going to go and do this.

781
00:28:38.917 --> 00:28:41.214
And she did it even though she was afraid.

782
00:28:41.901 --> 00:28:42.136
I mean,

783
00:28:42.137 --> 00:28:43.511
she was scared out of her mind there.

784
00:28:43.901 --> 00:28:45.839
And yet she didn't stop her.

785
00:28:46.292 --> 00:28:46.589
I mean,

786
00:28:46.651 --> 00:28:49.183
and she called the police and she went for help.

787
00:28:49.214 --> 00:28:49.495
I mean,

788
00:28:49.496 --> 00:28:52.964
if you have a checklist of everything you're supposed to do,

789
00:28:53.823 --> 00:28:53.933
she.

790
00:28:54.446 --> 00:29:12.620
crossed all that and got all the bonus points and that's something we have to consider as a society people go why didn't he do this or why didn't he do that well how do you know he didn't we can't talk to carol and say what else she did this is what we are you know we know some of it but she was you

791
00:29:12.621 --> 00:29:22.933
know savvy she was a resourceful resilient and got punished as i said before for it now the neil's is one of her biggest advocates

792
00:29:23.574 --> 00:29:25.056
They received death threats,

793
00:29:25.175 --> 00:29:26.177
all kinds of stuff.

794
00:29:27.058 --> 00:29:27.880
Are they still alive?

795
00:29:27.881 --> 00:29:29.162
And did you ever get a chance to meet them?

796
00:29:30.380 --> 00:29:31.583
Don Neal passed away.

797
00:29:32.146 --> 00:29:34.747
It's his wife as of now.

798
00:29:34.826 --> 00:29:34.943
Yeah,

799
00:29:35.044 --> 00:29:35.927
she's still alive.

800
00:29:36.466 --> 00:29:37.966
So they're around,

801
00:29:38.029 --> 00:29:39.427
but she's still alive.

802
00:29:39.466 --> 00:29:39.833
But I mean,

803
00:29:39.849 --> 00:29:41.224
this has been decades now.

804
00:29:41.412 --> 00:29:43.318
And that was the,

805
00:29:43.552 --> 00:29:49.537
she's basically the final non-family advocate Carol has.

806
00:29:50.168 --> 00:29:50.508
And,

807
00:29:51.028 --> 00:29:51.288
you know,

808
00:29:51.629 --> 00:29:52.588
and her friend Paula.

809
00:29:53.189 --> 00:29:55.468
Paula was the other one who was there.

810
00:29:55.769 --> 00:29:58.793
And it was interesting because when I was doing research,

811
00:29:59.113 --> 00:30:06.957
Paula wrote a letter to the editor after Carol's murder and talked about the reality of the situation,

812
00:30:07.410 --> 00:30:07.597
which,

813
00:30:07.832 --> 00:30:08.129
you know,

814
00:30:08.254 --> 00:30:10.066
was not easy for her because you would,

815
00:30:10.847 --> 00:30:11.113
you know,

816
00:30:11.285 --> 00:30:15.472
your closest friend gets killed and you're scared to speak out.

817
00:30:15.473 --> 00:30:16.441
And yet she did anyway.

818
00:30:17.316 --> 00:30:19.019
and it was very interesting to see

819
00:30:19.476 --> 00:30:21.238
How many of her friends,

820
00:30:21.298 --> 00:30:21.559
you know,

821
00:30:21.639 --> 00:30:23.039
still went to bat for her.

822
00:30:23.080 --> 00:30:24.502
And some of them are not over here anymore.

823
00:30:24.521 --> 00:30:25.443
They've passed away.

824
00:30:26.244 --> 00:30:28.361
That's how long ago this case happened.

825
00:30:29.307 --> 00:30:32.291
But many people tried to keep her going,

826
00:30:32.713 --> 00:30:33.627
her spirit going.

827
00:30:33.650 --> 00:30:41.432
And it was very interesting to see from my perspective of somebody who's worked in true crime television to look at that.

828
00:30:41.478 --> 00:30:42.932
Because when you construct the shows,

829
00:30:42.963 --> 00:30:43.603
you don't do that.

830
00:30:44.588 --> 00:30:46.541
You focus on the case,

831
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:48.103
the red herrings,

832
00:30:48.447 --> 00:30:49.260
the suspect.

833
00:30:49.849 --> 00:30:50.669
the timeline,

834
00:30:51.050 --> 00:30:57.960
but the more emotional factors of who was left behind and the devastation is not something we really talk about on this.

835
00:30:57.999 --> 00:31:06.725
And yet it's an integral part of understanding how homicides impact us individually and as a society.

836
00:31:07.288 --> 00:31:09.522
So now that this book is out by a couple of years,

837
00:31:09.804 --> 00:31:11.382
what's next for Alexandra?

838
00:31:11.383 --> 00:31:12.507
Are you writing any more books?

839
00:31:13.554 --> 00:31:15.819
I have one more coming out.

840
00:31:16.679 --> 00:31:17.429
It's on Now...

841
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:39.722
basically an extension of uh a true crime television how to present it more ethically so it's called narrative criminology and it'll be coming out in a few months and it's all about uh how to present true crime television with a much more uh emotional uh lens and how we we maybe over focus on

842
00:31:40.566 --> 00:31:45.612
the perpetrator and not the victim and when we do it's usually you know these barnum statements well

843
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:46.360
the victim,

844
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:46.540
well,

845
00:31:46.541 --> 00:31:47.220
every time she came,

846
00:31:47.280 --> 00:31:49.401
she lit up the room with her smile.

847
00:31:49.402 --> 00:31:49.561
Like,

848
00:31:49.581 --> 00:31:49.700
well,

849
00:31:49.721 --> 00:31:50.903
that's a very nice thing to say,

850
00:31:50.942 --> 00:31:52.040
but who was this person?

851
00:31:52.501 --> 00:31:52.661
That,

852
00:31:52.840 --> 00:31:53.083
you know,

853
00:31:53.102 --> 00:31:54.626
is kind of an empty compliment.

854
00:31:54.899 --> 00:31:56.805
We don't get to know people.

855
00:31:56.821 --> 00:31:58.321
And when I was talking to victims'

856
00:31:58.360 --> 00:31:58.782
families,

857
00:31:58.783 --> 00:32:00.040
when there's a true crime researcher,

858
00:32:00.321 --> 00:32:04.141
there was things that didn't make it in the press that this person was really fascinating.

859
00:32:04.157 --> 00:32:05.079
They had a life,

860
00:32:05.626 --> 00:32:06.563
they had characters,

861
00:32:06.564 --> 00:32:07.422
they had quirks,

862
00:32:07.891 --> 00:32:09.251
and you never get to show this.

863
00:32:10.297 --> 00:32:10.688
And I thought,

864
00:32:10.704 --> 00:32:11.641
that's a real shame.

865
00:32:11.751 --> 00:32:13.485
We don't get to humanize.

866
00:32:14.044 --> 00:32:14.464
victims.

867
00:32:14.465 --> 00:32:15.264
They play a role,

868
00:32:15.284 --> 00:32:16.604
but they're not humanized.

869
00:32:16.985 --> 00:32:18.186
And that really bothered me.

870
00:32:18.904 --> 00:32:23.963
And this is a book that's attempt to remedy that problem.

871
00:32:24.604 --> 00:32:25.486
So in closing,

872
00:32:26.026 --> 00:32:31.346
what would you say to someone and tell them why they should read Murder in the Sundown Town?

873
00:32:31.455 --> 00:32:34.861
And what do you not want them to forget about Carol Jenkins?

874
00:32:35.502 --> 00:32:38.346
I don't want them to forget about anything about Carol Jenkins.

875
00:32:38.893 --> 00:32:41.908
I want them to remember she was a lovely young woman.

876
00:32:42.844 --> 00:32:45.187
that she was a role model and still is,

877
00:32:45.988 --> 00:32:49.791
and that she did the right things.

878
00:32:50.670 --> 00:32:55.037
And we can't forget that sometimes bad things happen to good people.

879
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:56.638
And people,

880
00:32:56.779 --> 00:32:59.607
if they want to understand the construction of true crime television,

881
00:33:00.357 --> 00:33:04.185
to challenge their own assumptions of what is really going on,

882
00:33:04.826 --> 00:33:08.232
and to understand how badly botched

883
00:33:08.810 --> 00:33:09.498
Carol Jenkins'

884
00:33:09.545 --> 00:33:10.092
case is,

885
00:33:10.185 --> 00:33:11.232
they should read the book.

886
00:33:11.856 --> 00:33:15.579
Anything you'd like to say to your fans and readers out there that may be listening to this show today?

887
00:33:16.861 --> 00:33:19.704
Thank you for your support and for,

888
00:33:19.864 --> 00:33:21.107
you know,

889
00:33:21.108 --> 00:33:23.607
reading and going into my various journeys.

890
00:33:23.747 --> 00:33:26.107
And I love to share my stories.

891
00:33:26.169 --> 00:33:29.357
And I'm glad that you came along for the wild ride.

892
00:33:29.935 --> 00:33:30.075
Well,

893
00:33:30.107 --> 00:33:30.560
Alexandra,

894
00:33:30.638 --> 00:33:31.700
thank you for being on the show.

895
00:33:32.278 --> 00:33:34.294
Merton and Sundown Town is a great book.

896
00:33:34.622 --> 00:33:38.247
It is truly a case that no one should ever forget.

897
00:33:38.466 --> 00:33:40.310
And those of you that's listened to me that has.

898
00:33:40.528 --> 00:33:43.449
any kind of platform that's dealing with true crime.

899
00:33:43.808 --> 00:33:45.131
You need to pick up this case.

900
00:33:45.408 --> 00:33:46.631
You need to do this case.

901
00:33:46.709 --> 00:33:50.111
Remember that you may reach somebody that I may not.

902
00:33:50.189 --> 00:33:52.767
Everyone doesn't know who I am or what show that I run,

903
00:33:53.189 --> 00:33:54.533
but your artist does know you.

904
00:33:54.767 --> 00:33:57.377
And we need to keep this case out there in the open.

905
00:33:57.908 --> 00:33:58.267
Alexander,

906
00:33:58.299 --> 00:33:59.392
anytime you want to come back,

907
00:33:59.814 --> 00:34:01.455
I'm going to read some of your other books.

908
00:34:01.471 --> 00:34:02.189
Maybe we have you back on,

909
00:34:02.205 --> 00:34:03.127
talk about some of those.

910
00:34:03.471 --> 00:34:04.846
You're always welcome to come back on the show.

911
00:34:05.330 --> 00:34:06.017
Thank you so much.

912
00:34:06.018 --> 00:34:08.611
It was such a pleasure speaking with you.

913
00:34:09.099 --> 00:34:09.399
Thank you.

914
00:34:12.223 --> 00:34:12.442
All right,

915
00:34:12.461 --> 00:34:12.942
guys,

916
00:34:13.465 --> 00:34:15.684
that was the wonderful Alexandra Kitty.

917
00:34:15.785 --> 00:34:19.246
Get your copy of Murder in a Sundown Town on Amazon.

918
00:34:19.910 --> 00:34:21.489
Anywhere else you can buy great books.

919
00:34:21.528 --> 00:34:25.450
I will leave a link to that in the show notes of this show.

920
00:34:26.871 --> 00:34:28.184
Thank you for joining us today.

921
00:34:28.700 --> 00:34:31.934
I know you have many choices in true crime and interview podcasts,

922
00:34:31.935 --> 00:34:35.262
and I am grateful that I am just one of your choices.

923
00:34:35.931 --> 00:34:40.336
You have been listening to the only three-faceted podcast of its kind.

924
00:34:40.996 --> 00:34:42.719
Be good to yourself and each other.

925
00:34:43.418 --> 00:34:44.621
And always remember,

926
00:34:45.543 --> 00:34:46.543
always stay humble.

927
00:34:47.363 --> 00:34:49.605
An act of kindness can make someone's day.

928
00:34:50.605 --> 00:34:53.012
Other love and compassion can go a long way.

929
00:34:53.746 --> 00:34:58.027
And remember that there is an extraordinary person in all of us.

930
00:34:58.137 --> 00:35:00.277
I'll catch you guys on the next one.

931
00:35:04.279 --> 00:35:05.440
Don't forget to rate,

932
00:35:05.520 --> 00:35:05.901
comment,

933
00:35:06.001 --> 00:35:06.843
and subscribe.

934
00:35:07.302 --> 00:35:08.464
Join us on social media.

935
00:35:09.104 --> 00:35:10.827
One link to the link tree has it all.

936
00:35:11.565 --> 00:35:16.010
Feel free to drop us a line at truecrimeandauthors at gmail.com.

937
00:35:16.612 --> 00:35:19.050
Cover art and logo designed by Arsliff.

938
00:35:19.612 --> 00:35:21.971
Sound mixing and editing by David McClam.

939
00:35:22.737 --> 00:35:25.565
Intro script by Sophie Wild and David McClam.

940
00:35:26.393 --> 00:35:26.987
Theme music,

941
00:35:27.346 --> 00:35:29.237
Legendary by New Alchemist.

942
00:35:29.878 --> 00:35:32.831
Introduction and ending credits by Jackie Voice.

943
00:35:33.591 --> 00:35:35.557
See you next time on True Crime,

944
00:35:35.817 --> 00:35:36.258
Authors,

945
00:35:36.518 --> 00:35:37.783
and Extraordinary People.