Legal Lion: A Prosecutor’s Fight for Justice-Randy Barnett

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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to True Crime, offers and extraordinary people.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The podcast where we bring two passions together.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The show that gives new meaning to the old adage.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Truth is stranger than fiction, and reminding you that there is an extraordinary person in all of us.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Here is your host.

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[SPEAKER_01]: David McLean.

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[SPEAKER_02]: What's going on, everybody?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the episode of True Crime, all those extraordinary people, of course I'm your man.

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[SPEAKER_02]: All right, guys, well here we are.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We have the first author of 2026, and I believe it's going to be a good one.

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[SPEAKER_02]: He is a professor of constitutional law at the Georgetown University Law Center and director of the Georgetown Center for the Constitution.

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[SPEAKER_02]: He is the author of 13 books, including our Republican Constitution and the original meaning of the 14th Amendment.

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[SPEAKER_02]: He argued the medical marijuana case of Gonzalez versus Rage before the Supreme Court.

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[SPEAKER_02]: In his upcoming book, he recounts the murder investigations, grizzly police station confessions, legal corruption, courtroom tactics, and moral dilemmas he faced while rising through the ranks from chaotic misdemeanor courts to the city's pioneering phony review unit to the Philly trial courts.

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[SPEAKER_02]: He is the author of the upcoming book, filling the review, tales of true crime and corruption.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Please welcome to the show, Randy E. Barnett.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Randy, welcome.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thanks so much for having me, David.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I have enjoyed your podcast and I look forward to our conversation.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you, sir.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It is my pleasure to have you here in my honor, grateful that you can be with me here today.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to ask you the first question I ask, everybody that comes on my show.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything else we should know about Randy E. Barnett that was not covered in your introduction?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, I guess probably the biggest thing is that I'm a child of television.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a child of TV and I came to want to be a lawyer in the first place because the television show came on when I was 10 years old called The Defenders and it was a ran for like three seasons.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not well known because it was never put into syndication, it's not rerun.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Do do IP issues, I believe, but it started EG Marshall as a father and Robert Reed who ultimately went on to be the Brady Bunch dad as the son in a father son criminal defense team in New York.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They were high price criminal defense lawyers, but it was filmed on local

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[SPEAKER_00]: in New York.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was very gritty.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was very realistic.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And unlike Perry Mason, which we watched every Sunday, growing up, a Perry Mason was about solving murders.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The defenders was about being a lawyer.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The ethical dilemmas that arose when you were a defense lawyer and the cooperation between the defense and the prosecution and the judges to see the justice was done.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It also explored a lot of hot button issues for those days.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When I saw that show, I knew what I wanted to be.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to be a lawyer, and to me, that only meant being a criminal lawyer.

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[SPEAKER_00]: As some people, my reputation is actually as a constitutional scholar, and that's what I write about now, and a lot of people don't even know I was a criminal prosecutor in Chicago, which is one of the reasons why I wrote felony review.

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[SPEAKER_00]: to bring to the four of the experiences I had, which were so many and so varied that you could never sit down and tell them all, so I decided to sit down and write them out and ended up being the book.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I am very familiar with both of those shows, especially Perry Mason.

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[SPEAKER_02]: My mom wasn't in love with the show.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It was always on my screen at home.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm glad you used this part, but that kind of my same thing.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I got into two crime because of the whole Jim Jones, the Guyana saga, I watched every documentary, and I was younger, as you probably know, the great Mr. Booth played Jim Jones very well and they ran that show every year.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So we had that in common.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We got into it from TV and stories that like that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things I discovered when I got into criminal justice system was it's better than TV.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you expect to be, if you got into the business because of television, you know, the drama go, oh, well, you know, it's actually pretty mundane and blah, blah, blah, blah, no, not at all.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was better than TV because before, you know, cable before HBO could put on the wire, let's say, they couldn't really show you what the system was like, not really.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And even now they don't really, they don't very often show you what the system is really like.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's more interesting.

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[SPEAKER_00]: in part because it's prettier, dirtier, more corrupt, but that's part of what makes it interesting to do battle in.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Then TV can depict.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the themes of my book is better than TV, which is what Alan Dirichlet said about it in his endorsement.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's preface.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He said this reads like a reality TV show.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It really does.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's meant to.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, before we get into that, there's one question I want to ask you that doesn't have anything to do with it, but I want to say thank you for listening to the show.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I always put people through tests because I get a lot of people says I listen to your show when it's great, but when somebody actually comes and tells me episodes, I know you listen to the show.

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[SPEAKER_02]: This has been shot through a February, which is by Kishri month and you brought up to my attention that you did listen to my Black History fact on Fred Hampton and you have some connection with that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Would you like to share that with me in the audience?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was kind of amazing because it is discussed in my book, actually.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I went to work as a Cook County State's attorney in Chicago in 1977, but the person I went to work for was a Republican, a Republican, you know, some of you, your listeners may know

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[SPEAKER_00]: a Republican in Chicago was a Cook County, which is includes the suburbs around Chicago.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a pretty rare thing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And he was, and having our state's attorney who was an elected state's attorney who was a representative, very rare thing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, how my boss Bernie Carrey got it in office was running against Ed Handerhand.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And Handerhand was the guy who was involved in the Fred Hampton case.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He was the state's attorney who was involved with

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[SPEAKER_00]: the assault on the Black Panther's apartment, and he was accused of having stated untruths about the nature of that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He was ended up being charged, but I think acquitted, hand-written hand was of the misconduct, but he went up against my boss, a Bernie Kerry who was a former FBI agent,

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[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the good government types ran as a good government type, my boss got the support of a majority of the black words in Chicago, which was extremely unusual for Republican and that's what carried the day and he served two terms until he was defeated by rich daily who and the mayor daily famous mayor daily son who ultimately ended up being mayor himself, but I was just fortunate.

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[SPEAKER_00]: because I grew up in the suburbs and I was not a Chicago Democrat with no I had no political connections, which he needed to get up job in the state's attorneys office before Bernie Kerry came in.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was just fortunate he happened to be there when I got there.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing that Bernie Kerry did that was innovative was he instituted drug diversion programs to

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[SPEAKER_00]: divert users, a low level user's first time offenders into diversion programs that would cause them not to have a conviction on their record if they were caught and that's one of the reasons why he lost the election eight years later because Rich Daily ran as a tough on tough on drugs hard on drugs candidate and he ultimately ended up beating my boss eight years after he took office.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you for that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's great to hear things like that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: If you guys have listened to my afraid hymns in fact, please go check it out.

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[SPEAKER_02]: He was a chair of the Black Panther Party.

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[SPEAKER_02]: He organized a lot of things.

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[SPEAKER_02]: He was eventually killed and he fell upon the corn till Pro from their BI.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So go check that whole fact out if you guys haven't already.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And Randy, thank you for sharing that, man.

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[SPEAKER_02]: That's very enlightening.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I was, I didn't expect to have a connection like that with your, with your podcast until I started investigating and it was really enjoyable.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So let's jump into some things about your book and yourself.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell us how long were you a prosecutor for?

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[SPEAKER_00]: great.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was a prosecutor for four years after I graduated from law school, it was probably the most, it is certainly the most memorable four years of my life.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I went from there to being a research fellow at the University of Chicago Law School before I started my first teaching job in Chicago.

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[SPEAKER_00]: At the Chicago Kent College of Law, I then moved on to after 11 years to Boston University where I was on the faculty for 13 years and I've been on the faculty of Georgetown Law for 20 years.

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[SPEAKER_00]: from being a contract's professor originally, never a criminal law professor.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I taught it, but it was not my specialty to being a constitutional scholar.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I've argued in the Supreme Court, the medical marijuana case that came out of California, Gonzalez versus Rage, which you mentioned in your opening.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I got to say, nobody pronounces Angel Rage's last name correctly.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's Rage.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You said, Rage, you have no idea how many times I get introduced.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the person that just simply usually a law professor, someone like that says, right, rake, I mean, I just think it seems like it ought to be raged.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody gets it right.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was just a, a congratulations, David, you, you got it right.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, that was my first and only opportunity to argue in front of the Supreme Court.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What I associated with my skills as a practicing lawyer was to be a trial lawyer, trying jury trials, trying murder cases, two juries.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That was my skill set, not being an appellate court lawyer, arguing constitutional cases to the ninth circuit court of appeals.

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[SPEAKER_00]: or the Supreme Court, and I'm kind of proud of myself that I've gotten to do both.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They're completely different activities, and I've been very privileged to be able to do both.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I've interviewed other prosecutors.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I've ever asked this question.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Then I won't ask this question of you.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I, you know, prosecutor versus defense attorneys, it has a lot of morality that goes to that, a lot of feelings.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So any of the cases that tested your morality or made you go up against anything that you didn't believe in, but you had a client that you had, or you had a good state that you had to get charges for?

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[SPEAKER_00]: great question it helps explain why it became a prosecutor in the first place because again my background my inspiration was a defense lawyer show not a prosecution show but when i was in law school you know and we had a very innovative clinical training program for trial criminal lawyers at Harvard Law School at the time I was very very fortunate law school actually did prepare me to be a trial lawyer which is unusual

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had a decide prosecution or defense, and the reason I picked prosecution was too full.

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[SPEAKER_00]: First is the defense's obligation, his ethical duty is to person foremost to his or her client.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's number one, where the prosecutor's obligation is to do justice, and our client, my client, was the people of the state of Illinois, and this isn't a co-county all of them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so my obligation was to do justice, and I was more comfortable with that as my ethical role than the ethical role of simply defending my client guilty or innocent, which is what defense attorneys role is, secondly, defense attorneys ordinarily perform that function.

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[SPEAKER_00]: by deconstructing or tearing down the prosecutor's case, on which is a very, very useful skill to have.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Prosecutors perform our function by building a case.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The first question a prosecutor asks himself is, how am I going to prove that?

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not enough to think I know what happened, how am I going to prove it?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was just positionally, just in terms of my personality, I'm more of a constructive, build a guy than I the deconstructive, tear it down guy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was more naturally suited to the project of building cases than it was tearing down somebody else's case.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's how I ultimately became a prosecutor.

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[SPEAKER_00]: As a result, I didn't have to face that conflict you're talking about because I was never compelled to prosecute anybody I didn't believe was guilty.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just probably a good reason to get into the title of the book, felony review.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because for nine months, I served on the state's attorney's very, very innovative program, the felony review program.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So let me explain a little, if it's okay, let me explain a little bit about what that program was about.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Ironically, this program was started by Ed Henry Han, who we've just badmouthed a minute ago.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But now I want to give him credit.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He started this program and the program was to say that Chicago police officers and suburban cops as well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But I was always in Chicago.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Chicago police officers cannot bring felony charges in Cook County in Chicago without the sign-off of a prosecutor associated with the Cook County State's attorney's office.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They can bring misdemeanor charges, but they can't bring felony charges.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So for that system to work, there has to be a unit, a full-time unit of prosecutors on call to evaluate every felony charge that might be brought in the city of Chicago.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Taking drugs when crimes were not included, that's a separate story, but every other crime was something we had to pass on.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so for nine months, that was my job.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had office in a Chicago area, police department headquarters.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had my own squad car, a Chevy Nova.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had my own radio, my police radio.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I would respond to the usually the area headquarters, but sometimes the district of police stations, that are within an area to evaluate a case.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that meant I'm a scene.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That meant interviewing the cops, interviewing the witnesses,

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[SPEAKER_00]: interviewing the defendant if possibly accused not to yet the defendant if possible.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And my job there was to decide whether felony charges should be brought or not.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Our unit and each one of us were meaningful reviews on guilt or innocence.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, not even not on guilt or innocence on proof or no proof, because guilt or innocence is sometimes beyond you to know in the criminal justice system, which you can go by as evidence or no evidence.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And as a result of that, we had about a 60% approval rating.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that meant a 40% rejection rating.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We would reject 40% of the charges that were broad.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Not only did we, what we sold, we had to do that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We kept detailed logs from which I wrote this book.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And every week, the states are unit supervisors would take our logbook and they would record what our approval rate and disapproval rate was.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And if our approval rate deviated too much from 6040,

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[SPEAKER_00]: So as a result, my job was to protect the innocent and to make, and that number one, protect the innocent.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But number two, ensure that the proof was actually going to be there when it came time to prove the case.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because the cops wanted clear the case.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But there may or may not be things that still need to be done, that they haven't done yet.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And my job was before I prove this case, I need you to do this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I need you to conduct this lineup.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That was one case I'm talking about.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I need you to go out and find the weapon.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's another case I talk about in the book.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the cops sometimes just don't feel like doing it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to just merge cops.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I like cops actually, and I work well with them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, they're like anybody else.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They think they've got their job done.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And somebody else comes along and says, well, maybe you need to do more.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They were very cooperative when I told them that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But nevertheless, the book tells the stories that I incurred when I was on felony review.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I could tell you one where an innocent guy was prevented from being charged with murder because of felony review.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's lots of them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But there's actually two big ones in the story.

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[SPEAKER_00]: One smaller one, if you could call this small,

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[SPEAKER_00]: involved a husband wife, who got into a screaming match with each other in their apartment, both Hispanic and the wife ends up dead, stabbed.

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[SPEAKER_00]: cops come they find the body on the floor actually what I was called to the district police station the scene of the crime was across the street from the station and the cops said you want to go to see the crime scene which I almost never got a chance to do and I said sure so we walked across the street and it was all snow outside we all had boots on and stuff and I've not come into this apartment which did not look like

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[SPEAKER_00]: CSI.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It did not look like law in order or crime scene.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was a lots of cops trampling all over the crime scene.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the body, but the body of the poor woman, was still laying on her stomach on the floor.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the cops in order to, you know, to kind of pull my chain, so to speak.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I looked up at me and said, because here I am, this 20-something kid, you know, a quarter-rice board code in genes or whatever was I was wearing that day.

16:20.861 --> 16:23.003
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, is it okay if we turn the body over?

16:22.983 --> 16:24.806
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he was just, you know, teasing me.

16:24.846 --> 16:31.075
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, sure, let me turn the body over and this won't pour woman's hand just clunks on the top of my boot.

16:31.235 --> 16:35.001
[SPEAKER_00]: And so she was dead and her husband was accused.

16:36.102 --> 16:38.546
[SPEAKER_00]: So the issue is was he's going to be charged with murder or not.

16:38.566 --> 16:41.450
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the end of the day, I let him go completely.

16:41.610 --> 16:43.954
[SPEAKER_00]: I just approved all charges and why would that be?

16:44.254 --> 16:48.400
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's start off with the fact that she was stabbed one time.

16:48.768 --> 16:49.709
[SPEAKER_00]: not multiple times.

16:49.950 --> 16:51.852
[SPEAKER_00]: And he, I interviewed him.

16:52.032 --> 16:55.036
[SPEAKER_00]: I got his side of the story, which was part of my, I remember that's part of my job.

16:55.477 --> 17:00.263
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said that, you know, he had no idea that she was stabbed and she was fine when he left the house.

17:00.463 --> 17:02.045
[SPEAKER_00]: Because after the fight, he stormed off.

17:02.686 --> 17:05.690
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm naturally skeptical of everybody I come across in the criminal justice.

17:05.790 --> 17:10.577
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care who it is, cops, victims, defendants, whoever it is, I'm skeptical.

17:10.597 --> 17:12.359
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my job, actually, to be skeptical.

17:12.679 --> 17:13.521
[SPEAKER_00]: Not, not to be had.

17:14.201 --> 17:15.383
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm skeptical.

17:15.363 --> 17:33.760
[SPEAKER_00]: But then I go, I mean, tell the story and that they had been struggling over this kitchen knife that she had reached into the, they were near the, in the kitchen, she'd reached out for this big kitchen knife and he struggled with her and eventually got the knife away from her and then then he storms out of the house.

17:33.942 --> 17:36.146
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm okay again, good story, but I'm skeptical.

17:36.467 --> 17:39.513
[SPEAKER_00]: So I interviewed all the neighbors in the apartment who was a walk three-flat walk up.

17:40.354 --> 17:44.803
[SPEAKER_00]: I interviewed all the neighbors and the neighbors said, yeah, they heard the fight, they were screaming and everything.

17:45.364 --> 17:51.175
[SPEAKER_00]: They heard the door slam and then they heard or continued to scream at him after he left.

17:51.948 --> 17:52.790
[SPEAKER_00]: So what does that tell me?

17:53.151 --> 17:58.241
[SPEAKER_00]: They had a fight, she's screaming, she's alive and well when he leaves the apartment.

17:58.843 --> 17:59.524
[SPEAKER_00]: That's number one.

18:00.105 --> 18:02.110
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I've got one puncture room.

18:02.831 --> 18:06.940
[SPEAKER_00]: What happened was she got punctured in the chest, it penetrated her lawn.

18:07.642 --> 18:11.610
[SPEAKER_00]: She ultimately bled internally, probably not realizing she was injured.

18:11.590 --> 18:16.837
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll eat and feel well, lay down, but of course that makes your lungs even more fill with blood.

18:17.397 --> 18:20.661
[SPEAKER_00]: When she didn't feel, and she went to get help, she couldn't get past the flu.

18:20.721 --> 18:24.045
[SPEAKER_00]: She fell on the floor, and that was on the end.

18:25.007 --> 18:32.256
[SPEAKER_00]: If this is an example of if there had been two puncture wounds, he might have been charged with murder.

18:32.896 --> 18:34.999
[SPEAKER_00]: But because there was only one puncture wound,

18:35.789 --> 18:36.350
[SPEAKER_00]: I let him go.

18:36.730 --> 18:38.694
[SPEAKER_00]: Now there was no need for a defense lawyer that day.

18:39.034 --> 18:42.219
[SPEAKER_00]: No public defender had to be involved, no private lawyer had to be involved.

18:42.860 --> 18:47.327
[SPEAKER_00]: The guy was like, oh, because felony review was on the scene and evaluating this case independently.

18:47.468 --> 18:50.372
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the heart of my book is about felony review.

18:50.773 --> 18:59.687
[SPEAKER_00]: The second half of the book is all about my experiences at trial lawyer, but all the stories I had getting before felony review in a Mr. Beter trial courts were equally interesting and educational.

19:00.933 --> 19:12.883
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not, you know, all of them legalese and stuff like that, so I'm going to ask this question probably for somebody who's ordered to, there's felony review still exists and do you, if it does, do you feel like it's important in this day and days that we're in?

19:13.420 --> 19:14.382
[SPEAKER_00]: It does still exist.

19:14.582 --> 19:16.125
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's structured somewhat differently.

19:16.165 --> 19:18.168
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we had a specialized unit.

19:18.188 --> 19:21.734
[SPEAKER_00]: I think more lawyers are rotated into felony view.

19:21.915 --> 19:25.862
[SPEAKER_00]: We were mostly, we were all on our way up to the felony trial courts.

19:26.122 --> 19:28.746
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we were supervised by two people who were experienced.

19:29.167 --> 19:31.952
[SPEAKER_00]: All homicide cases had to be done in consultation with them.

19:31.932 --> 19:45.036
[SPEAKER_00]: But whereas now I think they rotate back into felony review, more senior trial lawyers, which is a really good idea, because you have a better idea of what a case file ought to look like when you're a trial lawyer, when you've already been to court, then you do when you're just coming through.

19:45.096 --> 19:49.063
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I was very lucky because I had prosecuted as a student prosecutor at Harvard.

19:49.043 --> 19:56.997
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I interned two summers at the state's attorney's office where I got to work up files and actually participate as a student lawyer in the state's attorney's office.

19:57.018 --> 20:01.285
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had a better idea of what a file might look like and what it should look like.

20:01.486 --> 20:05.533
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I would have had if I'd have just come right into the Mr. Meeter branch courts.

20:05.513 --> 20:06.556
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it still exists.

20:06.596 --> 20:13.494
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really important, and I don't know what I don't know the answer to David is how it's been, whether it's been replicated elsewhere in the United States.

20:14.135 --> 20:19.810
[SPEAKER_00]: All I know is it played a huge role in Chicago when I was there in protecting the innocent.

20:20.110 --> 20:33.165
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if they have one in California either, but if they don't, I think, off of these dates would be different from that, because especially if you have people that cares what they're doing, it will cause a lot more into the people not to go to jail, right?

20:33.425 --> 20:40.273
[SPEAKER_02]: I know there's other projects, innocence projects and things like that, but as you know, those things take some times years to the clears.

20:40.353 --> 20:48.582
[SPEAKER_00]: The innocence project and all of those important programs were really made possible by DNA evidence,

20:48.562 --> 21:04.003
[SPEAKER_00]: At the time, the cases they investigate, these coal cases they investigated, these post-conviction cases they best get had were had and so as long as the blood samples are preserved and the semen samples are preserved and then DNA can clear their clients later on so that's been the big boon for innocence projects.

21:04.063 --> 21:09.270
[SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise it's really hard, it's really hard to contest a conviction once it's happened.

21:10.077 --> 21:11.822
[SPEAKER_02]: These are just some things talking about your book.

21:11.882 --> 21:18.662
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about another real quick, says that you witnessed some of the most grizzly police professions.

21:18.762 --> 21:22.332
[SPEAKER_02]: What kind of things did you witness in corruption within the police department?

21:22.733 --> 21:24.576
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, those are two different topics.

21:24.616 --> 21:26.179
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm happy to talk about one is corruption.

21:26.219 --> 21:27.321
[SPEAKER_00]: The other is confessions.

21:27.762 --> 21:30.167
[SPEAKER_00]: The confessions I would witness are the ones I took myself.

21:30.387 --> 21:35.597
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, in felony view, my job was to obtain the statements of the defendants if possible, where I can.

21:35.617 --> 21:36.979
[SPEAKER_00]: I keep saying defendants.

21:36.999 --> 21:38.562
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not defendants until they're charged.

21:39.003 --> 21:40.425
[SPEAKER_00]: So these are people who are accused.

21:40.546 --> 21:41.648
[SPEAKER_00]: Then they become defendants.

21:41.828 --> 21:43.331
[SPEAKER_00]: And my job is to get their statement.

21:43.591 --> 21:44.573
[SPEAKER_00]: And many, many, many, many, many, many, many,

21:45.565 --> 21:49.469
[SPEAKER_00]: of those accused with murder, rape, other serious crimes did make statements to me.

21:49.629 --> 21:54.674
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the natural inclination, reaction to people who hear that, thinking, well, why would they do that?

21:54.714 --> 22:02.001
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what explains that besides the fact that they were coerced with other than that they were coerced by the police, that's why they made the statement.

22:02.061 --> 22:04.884
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe the statements unreliable because they were coerced by the police.

22:04.944 --> 22:12.231
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, there were really, really bad old days in law enforcement, all across the country,

22:12.211 --> 22:16.698
[SPEAKER_00]: workops routinely abuse suspects and obtain confessions that way.

22:17.079 --> 22:19.362
[SPEAKER_00]: Many of them were true, but some of them weren't.

22:20.103 --> 22:27.155
[SPEAKER_00]: By the time I got into the system, I saw almost none of that, which was a little bit of a surprise to me because I went into the system extremely cynical.

22:27.335 --> 22:29.879
[SPEAKER_00]: That was one of the areas I was pleasantly surprised.

22:29.899 --> 22:31.061
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

22:31.441 --> 22:38.893
[SPEAKER_00]: That just mean when I was in the police station talking to defendants, always asking them after they confessed to me whether the how they'd been treated by the police,

22:38.873 --> 22:43.742
[SPEAKER_00]: Only in one instance, in all those times I did that, did anybody say they had been mistreated by the police.

22:44.263 --> 22:45.646
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I had to take steps about that.

22:45.886 --> 22:51.136
[SPEAKER_00]: But so I think the system was pretty clean that way by the time I got involved in it.

22:51.317 --> 22:54.723
[SPEAKER_00]: So what explains people confessing if they're not coerced?

22:54.743 --> 23:02.097
[SPEAKER_00]: Well in my experience, based on the actual defendants, I, these suspects I was interviewing.

23:02.077 --> 23:04.281
[SPEAKER_00]: there were three basic motives.

23:05.023 --> 23:09.992
[SPEAKER_00]: The most important one, the most common one, and that is that they didn't realize they were confessing at all.

23:10.573 --> 23:12.798
[SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to talk themselves out of the crime.

23:13.559 --> 23:15.924
[SPEAKER_00]: By saying, yeah, well, I was there, but I didn't pull the trigger.

23:15.944 --> 23:17.387
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I was there, but I wasn't this.

23:17.427 --> 23:20.693
[SPEAKER_00]: I was there, but as soon as you say, I was there.

23:20.673 --> 23:25.921
[SPEAKER_00]: now you've eliminated the need for the prosecution to prove identity, which is one of the hardest things to prove sometimes.

23:26.202 --> 23:28.485
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to have eyewitnesses or you have to have physical evidence.

23:28.525 --> 23:29.427
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we know it was you?

23:30.308 --> 23:34.435
[SPEAKER_00]: Once the guy says, well, I was there, but that element of the proof is gone.

23:35.116 --> 23:42.327
[SPEAKER_00]: And that statement will be later on, no matter what he says after I was there, I did this, I did that.

23:43.370 --> 23:44.733
[SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be proof against him.

23:44.753 --> 23:51.029
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like a, that's what we call an inculpatory like incriminating statement as opposed to ex-culpatory, one that helps him out.

23:51.250 --> 23:56.984
[SPEAKER_00]: And oftentimes, I was there, but whatever they said after that actually didn't affect their legal culpability.

23:57.004 --> 23:58.648
[SPEAKER_00]: I had, okay, so I had to try it.

23:58.668 --> 24:00.653
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, I was not on felony view, I was a,

24:00.633 --> 24:01.374
[SPEAKER_00]: a trial lawyer.

24:01.895 --> 24:17.955
[SPEAKER_00]: I had to try this case twice because they were two brothers accused of murdering the former sell mate of one of the brothers who was a drug dealer and the two brothers went from the west side to the south side to rip off that guy and steal his stash and steal his money and they both ended up getting caught.

24:18.115 --> 24:24.122
[SPEAKER_00]: I told the story in the in the book about how they got caught but the each gave statements to the police and each said I was there.

24:24.142 --> 24:28.648
[SPEAKER_00]: I was participating in the robbery but my brother is the one that actually killed Gregory.

24:29.270 --> 24:31.292
[SPEAKER_00]: by stabbing them to death is what happened.

24:31.432 --> 24:38.520
[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, to this day and even at that time, I could not be a hundred percent sure, which one of the brothers actually stabbed Gregory?

24:38.720 --> 24:39.521
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it didn't matter.

24:40.021 --> 24:46.208
[SPEAKER_00]: What matters, as long as they were, Gregory ended up stabbed to death in the commission of a robbery.

24:46.348 --> 24:51.573
[SPEAKER_00]: They were both equally guilty of felony murder and our murder under what's known as accountability.

24:51.773 --> 24:53.195
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it didn't matter which one did it.

24:53.535 --> 24:57.319
[SPEAKER_00]: So at the same time, they're trying to put the blame on someone else, their brother,

24:57.299 --> 25:03.049
[SPEAKER_00]: they're actually confessing guilt to the crime for which they were ultimately charged and both were convicted.

25:03.109 --> 25:08.658
[SPEAKER_00]: But I had to try each one of them separately because you're not allowed to introduce a confession.

25:08.698 --> 25:13.907
[SPEAKER_00]: They say you have two people, two defendants sitting next to each other in the courtroom and I were to introduce

25:13.887 --> 25:19.734
[SPEAKER_00]: Robert statement that says Gregory did it and then I introduce his Gregory statement that says Robert did it.

25:19.754 --> 25:35.693
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the jury is going to use those statements against the other brother, but in fact, either Robert nor Gregory's lawyer can cross examine the other defendant because they're sitting there in order for you be able to cross examine your accuser, you're going to have to have separate trials think I hope I made that clear enough.

25:35.673 --> 25:41.253
[SPEAKER_00]: So, basically, I have to try Robert, who's implicating Gregory separately from Gregory, who's implicating Robert.

25:41.273 --> 25:44.324
[SPEAKER_00]: I had to try both of them to a jury, and they both were convicted.

25:44.525 --> 25:45.428
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember the question.

25:45.608 --> 25:47.455
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the answer.

25:50.708 --> 26:13.273
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, you didn't tell was jobs, so the question was the confession is that you witnessed and did also, okay, I'm sorry, that was only reason number one my people confessed the most the most prevalent one is that they they don't know they're confessing they think they're talking themselves out of trouble and they're talking themselves into trouble the second reason is and I saw this in the in the murder in the confession that opens the book I

26:13.253 --> 26:32.336
[SPEAKER_00]: actually the book opens with one of the confessions I took it was the most chilling of the confessions I took from a guy named Juan Caballero who was involved in a street gang slaying of three suburban guys that came into cities to buy marijuana and it was by four Latin king members of the Latin kings and he was one of the members of Latin kings.

26:32.376 --> 26:36.381
[SPEAKER_00]: I took this confession from him and the question is why do he confess to me?

26:36.741 --> 26:41.607
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually he one of the other collaborators

26:43.055 --> 26:47.260
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think the basic reason I spent, you know, I spent many, many hours with him.

26:47.540 --> 26:49.462
[SPEAKER_00]: You first, by the way, here's how the process works.

26:49.502 --> 26:52.346
[SPEAKER_00]: I come in, I have a talk with them, and I read him his rights, I have a talk with him.

26:53.006 --> 26:54.208
[SPEAKER_00]: He tells me what he's going to tell me.

26:54.288 --> 26:56.370
[SPEAKER_00]: I ask him if he's willing to get the court reporter statement.

26:56.570 --> 27:01.396
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, yeah, I got to call up, they'll send over a court reporter that works for our office.

27:01.996 --> 27:09.145
[SPEAKER_00]: And that court reporter set up, we set up another interview, and we start from the beginning, give him his rights again, and I go through the whole thing with the court reporter statement.

27:09.165 --> 27:11.307
[SPEAKER_00]: Now the court reporter in those days,

27:11.287 --> 27:24.453
[SPEAKER_00]: went out and had to use a typewriter he brought with him and type up the statement then we go back into the room and I have the accused read every line of the statement make any corrections that they might want to make on the statement and then he's they sign it.

27:25.095 --> 27:26.578
[SPEAKER_00]: So that takes hours and hours.

27:26.638 --> 27:28.181
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean I was with him for maybe 10 hours.

27:28.241 --> 27:30.325
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to you get a feel for the person.

27:30.963 --> 27:33.569
[SPEAKER_00]: My feel for the person was, you know, he was kind of a clean cookie.

27:33.589 --> 27:34.792
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't have much of a record.

27:35.514 --> 27:43.051
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the reason why he confessed to it was that it would have been sort of unmanly and cowardly to not admit what he had done.

27:43.071 --> 27:46.339
[SPEAKER_00]: He did the right thing as far as he was concerned.

27:46.319 --> 28:06.943
[SPEAKER_00]: what do you mean how can you do the right thing well how why why why would everything that will because the reason why these kids the victims got themselves in trouble was they were trying to buy marijuana so they had to go buy them from criminals because marijuana was illegal and so they have to go where the gang members are they went to the gang a gang hangout it was uh... called uh... king castle was a burger place

28:06.923 --> 28:08.787
[SPEAKER_00]: not that far from where I lived at the time.

28:09.027 --> 28:13.937
[SPEAKER_00]: And they kind of tried to walk to these gang members and said they want to buy some some weed.

28:14.478 --> 28:16.302
[SPEAKER_00]: And the gang members said we don't have any.

28:16.322 --> 28:17.224
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, we can't sell it to.

28:17.264 --> 28:18.707
[SPEAKER_00]: And the truth is they didn't have any.

28:18.727 --> 28:19.990
[SPEAKER_00]: Marijuana prohibition work.

28:20.010 --> 28:22.114
[SPEAKER_00]: There was no marijuana involved.

28:22.094 --> 28:29.481
[SPEAKER_00]: But the kids thought, well, maybe they don't trust us, so they're going to try to ingratiate themselves with the gang members and start claiming, you know, talking about all the gang members they knew.

28:30.282 --> 28:49.840
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they, and so the guy they were talking to, one of the gang members, the leader of this group, said,

28:49.820 --> 29:08.436
[SPEAKER_00]: he was talking to latin kings and he's now getting himself in trouble by belat bragging about his association with the latin eagles all of which was a lie these guys were from the suburbs they didn't know they didn't they didn't do any of those things and as a result that the king said the latin king said all right we know we got marijuana for you let's go it will take you where it is

29:08.416 --> 29:20.210
[SPEAKER_00]: and they drove their car into a way into it, Ali made the boys get out, I'm up a young man, I should say, a get out, life face down in the snow and one by one brought him back into the car and stabbed him to death.

29:20.391 --> 29:22.173
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm making a long story short here.

29:22.313 --> 29:27.740
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I know all these details because these are the details that Juan Caballero, one of the guys who stabbed him to death told me.

29:27.920 --> 29:32.145
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I think he confessed because he thought, he's

29:32.125 --> 29:33.227
[SPEAKER_00]: it was the right thing to do.

29:33.287 --> 29:34.209
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's how I know it.

29:34.349 --> 29:44.106
[SPEAKER_00]: After I got the confession signed sealed and delivered ready to go, I have to figure out how my job is a felony review assistance to anticipate what will a defense attorney say about this case.

29:44.787 --> 29:48.334
[SPEAKER_00]: If I were defense attorney, how would I try to frame this case?

29:49.055 --> 29:52.982
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know what I would do in the case of Juan Calbularis, a good looking kid, not that old.

29:53.002 --> 29:54.825
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it might have been 20 years old.

29:55.210 --> 30:06.664
[SPEAKER_00]: on minor conviction, my defense was going to be, you know, he's a good kid, he got swept up in things, you know, anybody can make a mistake, you know, either quit him or, you know, don't give him the death penalty or whatever.

30:06.724 --> 30:17.758
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how I, and so one of, so after I had the confession locked in, I turned to him and I said, one, if you had it to do all over again, would you do it again?

30:18.937 --> 30:21.742
[SPEAKER_00]: And his response to me was, if it was a sure thing.

30:21.783 --> 30:24.808
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, well, right, no such thing as a sure thing.

30:25.570 --> 30:30.620
[SPEAKER_00]: And then his response to me is, well, a lot of kings have killed people without getting caught, meaning Latin kings.

30:31.401 --> 30:33.285
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, I know, but you got caught.

30:33.686 --> 30:34.427
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you do it again?

30:34.487 --> 30:35.950
[SPEAKER_00]: And he said,

30:36.419 --> 30:38.363
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I decilled Michael for sure.

30:38.644 --> 30:40.769
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the first guy who was doing all the talking.

30:41.210 --> 30:42.212
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know about the other two.

30:42.573 --> 30:44.337
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you can imagine how that played with the jury.

30:44.518 --> 30:49.629
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's category number two, proud.

30:50.371 --> 30:53.398
[SPEAKER_00]: Category number three, ashamed.

30:53.834 --> 30:54.976
[SPEAKER_00]: and needing to confess.

30:55.476 --> 30:57.760
[SPEAKER_00]: There's another case I talk about in the book at Great Length.

30:57.900 --> 31:06.753
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to go through all the details here, but it involved the murderer of a Korean couple, liquor store owner by a man named Saisar Marion.

31:07.013 --> 31:10.558
[SPEAKER_00]: And I won't go through all the details because it would take us too long to do it.

31:10.738 --> 31:13.723
[SPEAKER_00]: And that also involved felony review and protecting the innocent man.

31:13.763 --> 31:15.766
[SPEAKER_00]: The cops first arrested a guy named Saisar.

31:16.767 --> 31:18.209
[SPEAKER_00]: But it turns out it was the wrong Saisar.

31:18.389 --> 31:22.255
[SPEAKER_00]: It was felony review that made the cops go to the hospital and get a photo ID.

31:22.387 --> 31:26.511
[SPEAKER_00]: by the victim, the survivor, the wife who survived, her husband was killed.

31:27.432 --> 31:32.278
[SPEAKER_00]: And she said, that's not the guy, then they went out and got, the others, the real says are marin, the guy that did it.

31:32.818 --> 31:39.605
[SPEAKER_00]: And so again, felony views saved, the first says are from a wrongful prosecution and letting the real killer get go lose.

31:39.786 --> 31:46.673
[SPEAKER_00]: But I got, but one of the things in the long, I reproduce and let many of the excerpts from the confessions I took, because I have the transcripts.

31:46.923 --> 32:03.733
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things Cesar Maran said at the end was how he just wasn't sleeping that well it'd been a week since the crime and he just hadn't been sleeping well why not well because I keep thinking about the man I keep thinking about the man the man he shot dead I mean the man yeah the man he he shot dead yeah I just keep thinking about it

32:04.591 --> 32:08.377
[SPEAKER_00]: My sense of this guy was he felt guilty for what he'd done.

32:08.997 --> 32:16.228
[SPEAKER_00]: And confessing to me, like confessing to a priest, was something that alleviated his guilt, that got it off his mind, it got it off his conscience a bit.

32:16.909 --> 32:21.816
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's the third motivation I think for people confessing without being caused by the cops.

32:22.117 --> 32:28.506
[SPEAKER_02]: So I hope that the artist here is this one to that and wanna go get this book because there's a lot more David where that one came from.

32:29.043 --> 32:30.364
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, there certainly is.

32:30.424 --> 32:31.766
[SPEAKER_02]: I do know that for a fact.

32:32.647 --> 32:38.513
[SPEAKER_02]: So can you tell us what they'll give it too much away for the book about a little bit of the corruption that you did face in the system?

32:38.533 --> 32:40.014
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, that's the subtitle of the book.

32:40.074 --> 32:46.300
[SPEAKER_00]: It's felony review is the title, available on Amazon by the way, publication date is March 16th, March 17th, sorry.

32:46.501 --> 32:58.813
[SPEAKER_00]: The subtitle is Tales of True Crime and Corruption in Chicago because in Cook County, it was notoriously corrupt in the 1970s.

32:58.793 --> 33:03.439
[SPEAKER_00]: live in Chicago anymore, so I can't speak to what it's like today exactly, but it was notoriously corrupt.

33:03.760 --> 33:04.961
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, here's one thing.

33:05.021 --> 33:13.052
[SPEAKER_00]: I was pleasantly surprised when I went into the criminal justice system that it wasn't even more corrupt than it was because my office was not corrupt.

33:13.733 --> 33:20.241
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was so cynical based on the stuff my dad had always told me, he was a small business man who had placed in Chicago, his business in Chicago.

33:20.682 --> 33:26.910
[SPEAKER_00]: I was so cynical that I thought everything was corrupt, and it turns out my office was not corrupt, and that was great.

33:27.059 --> 33:47.970
[SPEAKER_00]: but again that was Bernie Kerry we talked about him at the beginning what there was rife corruption and i had to deal with that and it was discouraging or it was well it was a challenge for sure and that meant cases got fixed out from under me in one in particular that happened in auto theft court was a particularly disturbing it was a chop shop operation chop shops are when stolen cars

33:47.950 --> 33:51.136
[SPEAKER_00]: are taken and broken down for parts and then sold for parts.

33:51.156 --> 33:58.811
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason why that happens is because you can't sell a stolen use car, a stolen car because they have vehicle identification numbers and you won't be able to get it registered.

33:59.352 --> 34:03.821
[SPEAKER_00]: So the way auto thief can make money off the car is they deliver it to a chop shop.

34:04.342 --> 34:10.313
[SPEAKER_00]: The chop shop chops up the car, they sell the parts through auto wrecking yards where you can buy car parts.

34:10.293 --> 34:13.281
[SPEAKER_00]: But the auto wrecking yards in Chicago were controlled by the mob.

34:13.803 --> 34:22.828
[SPEAKER_00]: So the chop shops are controlled by the mob, and the mob doesn't steal all the cars, but people who do steal cars know where to go take them, get paid for them, and then the mob chops them up and sells them.

34:23.350 --> 34:25.315
[SPEAKER_00]: And so a chop shop case is

34:25.295 --> 34:37.234
[SPEAKER_00]: big deal in the courtroom, I was assigned to, which was the auto theft, misdemeanor and felony preliminary hearing court, all the auto theft cases, all the auto cases came to one central court, and I was assigned to that court.

34:37.695 --> 34:51.657
[SPEAKER_00]: And in one of the cases I talk about in the book, the defense attorney, my partner and I put on the probable cause hearing, and the defense attorney went cross exam in the cop and all of a sudden, the cop is testifying to circumstances that would have made the search illegal.

34:52.447 --> 34:53.769
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, wait a second.

34:53.789 --> 34:56.634
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if cops lie in court, they lie in court to make a case better.

34:56.935 --> 34:58.678
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't lie in court to make the case worse.

34:59.479 --> 35:08.194
[SPEAKER_00]: So all of a sudden, we know the cop is dirty because he's now confessing to violating the Fourth Amendment law in open court.

35:08.174 --> 35:09.976
[SPEAKER_00]: But then the other thing was, what about the judge?

35:10.096 --> 35:15.083
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the judge had just relatively, the recently been transferred into auto theft court from traffic court.

35:15.123 --> 35:18.107
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, we should have told us something because traffic court was really corrupt.

35:18.707 --> 35:20.069
[SPEAKER_00]: But we weren't thinking about that.

35:20.289 --> 35:21.751
[SPEAKER_00]: This judge had a rule.

35:21.972 --> 35:23.433
[SPEAKER_00]: It was his own policy.

35:23.694 --> 35:28.680
[SPEAKER_00]: His policy was he would not hear any motion to suppress for constitutional violations.

35:28.660 --> 35:36.593
[SPEAKER_00]: So, whenever the cross-examination would go into the subject, we would stay, objection your honor, beyond the scope of preliminary hearing.

35:37.134 --> 35:37.856
[SPEAKER_00]: And he goes sustain.

35:38.116 --> 35:41.882
[SPEAKER_00]: So, file your motion in the trial court where it's going next after probable clauses found.

35:42.283 --> 35:46.751
[SPEAKER_00]: In this case, of course, the defense attorney starts asking the cop about the circumstances of the search.

35:46.991 --> 35:53.402
[SPEAKER_00]: And we go objection beyond the scope of preliminary hearing, and the judge goes, overruled.

35:53.753 --> 35:55.776
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, what do mean overruled?

35:56.436 --> 35:59.841
[SPEAKER_00]: And then after he said overruled the objection, then all the bad stuff comes in.

36:00.041 --> 36:05.749
[SPEAKER_00]: So that tells us not only is the cop crooked, but the judge is crooked too, he's in on it.

36:06.750 --> 36:15.742
[SPEAKER_00]: And from that point on, when I was assigned to that courtroom, A, I would tell everybody else who was assigned to that courtroom, watch out for this judge, he's corrupt.

36:16.222 --> 36:19.947
[SPEAKER_00]: B, I would tell the bar lawyers who came and to represent people about it.

36:20.686 --> 36:23.310
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I had to take steps to avoid the corruption in the future.

36:23.370 --> 36:29.838
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes that meant going to the grand jury for probable cause rather than going to preliminary hearing for probable cause.

36:29.979 --> 36:39.852
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the book tells another story about how about six weeks later, this defense attorney had another chop shot case and called me up and wanted to meet it.

36:40.052 --> 36:42.075
[SPEAKER_00]: He wanted to continue and sound the case.

36:42.576 --> 36:43.437
[SPEAKER_00]: Well,

36:43.417 --> 36:45.280
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did he ask for a continuous in the case?

36:45.320 --> 36:49.346
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because that judge was that we had fixed the previous case was now on vacation.

36:49.726 --> 36:57.437
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I said, no, now I don't know this judge up to I don't know the substitute judge, but I know he's not judge divine who's the guy who fixed the case.

36:57.457 --> 37:00.782
[SPEAKER_00]: So I said, no, Eddie, we're going to go to we're going to go to go to hearing tomorrow.

37:00.802 --> 37:01.303
[SPEAKER_00]: You be ready.

37:02.124 --> 37:03.206
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he said to me the following.

37:03.246 --> 37:04.007
[SPEAKER_00]: He said.

37:04.797 --> 37:11.786
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I can understand while you might not want to have this case heard from Biden from Judge Divine, which was kind of an interesting admission right there.

37:12.407 --> 37:15.151
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, but a judge defines on vacation now, isn't he?

37:15.371 --> 37:15.952
[SPEAKER_00]: I go, yeah.

37:16.453 --> 37:18.716
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, well, how long is the on vacation for him?

37:18.736 --> 37:21.079
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, well, two weeks, this is the first of his two week vacation.

37:21.099 --> 37:22.040
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, well, yeah.

37:22.060 --> 37:22.260
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

37:22.461 --> 37:25.164
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, I know you want to take a contingent to get your case ready.

37:25.244 --> 37:28.729
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to bring in all these witnesses, and I don't want to bring him in if you're not going to go.

37:28.912 --> 37:34.301
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have any objections, just want to kick it over one week and now you get it what you want and I get what I want and everything's cool.

37:35.202 --> 37:44.577
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought about it and I said, it was tempting because we normally did take a continue and sound shop shop cases because we had a lot of vehicle identification numbers and other stuff paperwork we wanted to make sure it got straight.

37:44.598 --> 37:47.883
[SPEAKER_00]: But I said, no, Eddie, you get ready for hearing tomorrow.

37:47.903 --> 37:48.664
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to go tomorrow.

37:48.764 --> 37:50.447
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll call you if I change my mind.

37:50.900 --> 38:00.429
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I went upstairs to handle the afternoon call, and the court clerk was standing there's name was Chester, and he was standing there talking to no one in particular as I recall just sort of spouting off to the other corpus now.

38:00.770 --> 38:04.521
[SPEAKER_00]: They just got off the phone with the judge and he might be cutting short his vacation.

38:07.066 --> 38:11.875
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was only because I knew about this from the previous case that I was able to counter manned it.

38:11.915 --> 38:22.193
[SPEAKER_00]: In this case, we went to hearing the next day, Eddie, Eddie, who sold me hit all these witnesses he had to bring in, brought in no witnesses, basically didn't ask any questions.

38:22.294 --> 38:24.858
[SPEAKER_00]: It virtually waived preliminary hearing and that was the end of that.

38:25.039 --> 38:30.829
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was the kind of maneuvering that happened and was the kind of maneuvering that you tried to had to do to get around it.

38:30.809 --> 38:33.936
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, interesting thing too, I want to come to your book.

38:34.037 --> 38:35.681
[SPEAKER_02]: It's set back into 70s and 80s.

38:36.202 --> 38:38.587
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you feel like these kind of things?

38:39.209 --> 38:43.519
[SPEAKER_02]: People got away with it easier because of where the world was then compared to now.

38:44.410 --> 38:47.013
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I wish I had the answer to that question.

38:47.173 --> 38:54.922
[SPEAKER_00]: I talked to people that I know in the system and I think they tell me things are better at least in Chicago, because that's where I know people.

38:55.122 --> 39:06.115
[SPEAKER_00]: It was really blatant because everybody felt immune from anything bad happening to them if they were acting this way and I don't want to spoil the ending of the book, but the book has a happy ending.

39:06.095 --> 39:30.330
[SPEAKER_00]: and I don't want to say any more about it, but by the book and you'll find that there's a surprise ending that I do think did have some long lasting effect on it and in many of the prosecutors I was prosecuted cases with who are good prosecutors and honest prosecutors, they're circuit court judges now or frankly they're retiring from the bench because that's the

39:30.310 --> 39:36.418
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to think the system is better because in some respects it couldn't be any worse than it was when I was there.

39:36.599 --> 39:43.548
[SPEAKER_02]: Now here's the question that everybody who reads true crime books in their true books always won't answer if you can.

39:43.588 --> 39:48.194
[SPEAKER_02]: Are the names in the people in the book real over they changed?

39:49.316 --> 39:50.237
[SPEAKER_00]: All the names are real.

39:51.239 --> 39:57.347
[SPEAKER_00]: For reasons and I'm able to do that for reasons related to the surprise ending, which I can't talk about.

39:57.935 --> 40:03.186
[SPEAKER_00]: Except for one and there might have been one or two one one because

40:03.655 --> 40:10.146
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, although this was a story about one of my co states attorneys who went out and became a corrupt lawyer.

40:10.166 --> 40:16.316
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I remember when he was leaving the state's attorneys office and I said to him, you know, why are you doing that?

40:16.357 --> 40:17.278
[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't even gotten to it.

40:17.298 --> 40:20.403
[SPEAKER_00]: We were still in an auto theft court and I said, why are you doing that?

40:20.423 --> 40:23.429
[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't got, you haven't gotten all the way to felony trial courts yet.

40:23.469 --> 40:27.495
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where our goal is and he said to me, and I'll never forget this.

40:27.556 --> 40:29.038
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, Randy,

40:29.018 --> 40:52.187
[SPEAKER_00]: there's a lot of money to be made out there and I'm ready to make it and I didn't use his real name because when I was doing research for the book and I did research on what happened in the cases, what happened to the defendants after the cases, what happened to the victims, if I could find out, and back on all the lawyers and judges I was involved with so the reader gets a better sense of who those people were.

40:52.988 --> 40:56.933
[SPEAKER_00]: When I was doing research on this case and

40:57.065 --> 41:16.339
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm it looked to me from what I could tell on the internet that he had gotten his life together and he was no longer a lawyer, but he had gotten his life together and just in the off chance that I think a lot of people in his life now, some 40 years later, would not have known about this incident back in the day, but maybe I don't think my book is likely to

41:16.319 --> 41:28.202
[SPEAKER_00]: be read by any of those people but just in case it was or in case it got brought to his attention that this picked a scab off an old wound I just I changed his name for to you know because I think he's now you know

41:28.435 --> 41:29.196
[SPEAKER_00]: living a good life.

41:29.797 --> 41:32.722
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was the one name change that I can remember making.

41:32.742 --> 41:43.339
[SPEAKER_00]: I have another memoir published last year called The Life for Liberty, which is about my career, my old career, not just the, I took out the chapters on criminal justice because there were too many for a book to be in that book.

41:44.000 --> 41:47.946
[SPEAKER_00]: And in that book, I changed a couple of names of people that had been

41:47.926 --> 41:57.485
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, mean to me or unfair to me, growing up and against to my, you know, sort of still have a grudge, but I didn't want to call them out by name because it's been so many years later, they were kids.

41:57.565 --> 41:58.066
[SPEAKER_00]: I was kids.

41:58.127 --> 41:59.590
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I changed some of their names.

42:00.612 --> 42:01.954
[SPEAKER_00]: Here you are, here you are.

42:01.974 --> 42:08.247
[SPEAKER_02]: In your all words, can you tell the audience why they should go out and pick a copy, pick a copy of phony review?

42:08.328 --> 42:12.154
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because this is a true crime podcast.

42:12.214 --> 42:21.808
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're listening and you've listened this fire, you must like true crime stories, but you may not have heard of these stories, A, nitty gritty stuff.

42:22.009 --> 42:34.808
[SPEAKER_00]: As you can tell from the stories I'm talking about, there were some murder cases, obviously, but there are also some more petty cases too, but they're all interesting and you can learn lessons about the criminal justice system, but with those cases as well as the big cases,

42:34.788 --> 42:40.636
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it'll be, it's, you'd probably haven't heard, you haven't read that many from the prosecution standpoint.

42:41.216 --> 42:47.465
[SPEAKER_00]: You hear it from the Defense Attorney's standpoint for people who have now been, you know, worked hard to exonerate somebody who's been accused.

42:48.606 --> 43:04.407
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you could, and I think it's worthwhile for your audience to see what a real big city prosecutor goes through and how they try to do justice in a system where you can't always be sure what the facts,

43:04.387 --> 43:07.834
[SPEAKER_00]: all you can be sure of is where the evidence is pointing because you weren't there.

43:08.034 --> 43:08.535
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't know.

43:08.715 --> 43:17.913
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just think that if you're interested enough in true crime to read that, that kind of genre, you're interested in seeing what a real criminal justice system is like on a day-to-day level.

43:18.073 --> 43:23.644
[SPEAKER_02]: So in closing, is there anything you like to say to your friends or readers that may be listening to this today?

43:24.485 --> 43:32.333
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the book closes with two letters that I wrote to the producer, Mary Tyler, more of MTM productions.

43:32.553 --> 43:36.677
[SPEAKER_00]: I wrote the first one, while I was a prosecutor and Hill Street Blues came on the TV.

43:36.697 --> 43:43.244
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I know a lot of your listeners are going to be too young to remember Hill Street Blues, but it was a, it was a, it was a for that day and age.

43:43.444 --> 43:46.887
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a pretty gritty, realistic depiction of Chicago police.

43:47.148 --> 43:54.475
[SPEAKER_00]: Not as gritty as the wire turned out to be later, but you know, pretty gritty for broadcast TV, not cable.

43:54.455 --> 43:56.820
[SPEAKER_00]: was not even in the picture of that.

43:56.860 --> 44:07.841
[SPEAKER_00]: So I wrote a like an eight-page single-space letter to the producers, Brochko and Kozo, and I copied it to Grant Tinker, who Mary Tyler Moore's husband, who was the head of MTM Productions about the history.

44:08.021 --> 44:12.430
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the history of how lawyers had been depicted in film and TV.

44:12.410 --> 44:18.576
[SPEAKER_00]: and how Hill Street blues is breaking ground on on on in realism with respect to cops.

44:19.437 --> 44:22.760
[SPEAKER_00]: But so far, they're, you know, they're not doing it with respect to prosecutors.

44:22.780 --> 44:26.444
[SPEAKER_00]: It would be even more interesting if they would do it with respect to prosecutors.

44:27.085 --> 44:37.735
[SPEAKER_00]: And in particular, I predicted that if the prosecutor ever makes a appearance on the screen, in my book, I say, in this letter, I say, he's going to look like the, he'll be, I describe the guy and I describe him physically and what his demeanor was.

44:38.156 --> 44:40.678
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I had in mind a particular actor.

44:40.912 --> 44:44.662
[SPEAKER_00]: who had played a prosecutor on Kojek, another show I like to cop show I like.

44:45.644 --> 44:50.557
[SPEAKER_00]: And who does, who does Hill Street Blues go out and hire to be the actor to play the prosecutor?

44:50.777 --> 44:54.246
[SPEAKER_00]: They hire that very same actor that I have in my head.

44:55.272 --> 45:08.209
[SPEAKER_00]: They hire that guy and I actually a picture of that actor, you'll recognize him as a character actor from in the book and so the lesson of that and then I wrote another letter when LA Law came on saying how the prosecutor's still not being depicted accurately.

45:08.550 --> 45:09.591
[SPEAKER_00]: And so here's the message.

45:09.631 --> 45:14.317
[SPEAKER_00]: The message is it turns out the real criminal justice system is better than TV.

45:14.938 --> 45:19.204
[SPEAKER_00]: It's better than Hill Street Blues, it's better than LA Law.

45:19.184 --> 45:20.446
[SPEAKER_00]: It's better than law in order.

45:20.646 --> 45:23.972
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're interested in that, you should read my book.

45:23.992 --> 45:25.294
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Randy, I think we're coming to show.

45:25.314 --> 45:26.897
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in the process of reading the book now.

45:26.977 --> 45:31.023
[SPEAKER_02]: That is the one privilege that I do get by writing this kind of podcast.

45:31.063 --> 45:32.566
[SPEAKER_02]: I do get early copies.

45:33.267 --> 45:34.830
[SPEAKER_02]: And I am in the middle reading your book now.

45:34.870 --> 45:35.731
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a great book.

45:35.891 --> 45:38.155
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do encourage me to go out and get that.

45:38.135 --> 45:45.542
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been a lightning interview and I hope you enjoyed yourself because you're always welcome to come back any time that you feel the need to do so.

45:45.942 --> 45:46.543
[SPEAKER_00]: Fantastic.

45:46.563 --> 45:49.705
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know kind of flip the time kind of flew past for me.

45:50.046 --> 45:51.847
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope I hope it did for your listeners as well.

45:51.967 --> 45:54.470
[SPEAKER_02]: It did, man, that's how great conversations it go.

45:54.530 --> 45:58.533
[SPEAKER_02]: For like only talking, you've like 10 minutes and there's been almost an hour.

45:58.694 --> 46:00.795
[SPEAKER_02]: So but once again, thank you.

46:00.855 --> 46:08.142
[SPEAKER_02]: I think your purpose is reaching out to me, man, and it was been a great

46:08.122 --> 46:09.358
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for coming on.

46:11.783 --> 46:13.725
[SPEAKER_02]: Alright guys, that was an incredible rain to eat Barnett.

46:13.845 --> 46:15.787
[SPEAKER_02]: You can pre-order a felony review.

46:16.207 --> 46:21.152
[SPEAKER_02]: Tills of true crime and corruption in Chicago right now on Amazon.

46:21.292 --> 46:26.637
[SPEAKER_02]: The release date is March the 17th, and I will put a link in the description.

46:26.697 --> 46:31.141
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you listen to this before March 17th, you can still pre-order it if it's after that.

46:31.561 --> 46:33.483
[SPEAKER_02]: You can go ahead and buy your copy now.

46:33.963 --> 46:35.004
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's buy this book.

46:35.205 --> 46:36.506
[SPEAKER_02]: You will not be disappointed.

46:36.626 --> 46:37.547
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a great book.

46:37.567 --> 46:40.069
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you can tell that by some of the stories here.

46:40.049 --> 46:46.161
[SPEAKER_02]: But you do want to know what this surprise ending is and you can only find that out are reading the book.

46:47.204 --> 46:49.067
[SPEAKER_02]: Once again, I thank you guys for joining us today.

46:49.167 --> 46:52.834
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you have many choices and true crime and interview podcasts.

46:52.854 --> 46:55.198
[SPEAKER_02]: I am grateful that I am just one of your choices.

46:55.839 --> 47:00.707
[SPEAKER_02]: And as you remember, you have been listening to the only three-faceted podcast of its kind.

47:01.328 --> 47:03.171
[SPEAKER_02]: Be good to yourself and each other.

47:03.892 --> 47:06.637
[SPEAKER_02]: And always remember, always stay humble.

47:07.479 --> 47:10.123
[SPEAKER_02]: Inactive kindness can make someone's day.

47:10.103 --> 47:12.494
[SPEAKER_02]: a little love that compassion can go a long way.

47:13.177 --> 47:16.532
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember that there is an extraordinary person in all of us.

47:17.295 --> 47:18.983
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll catch you guys on the next one.

47:22.996 --> 47:25.599
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't forget to write, comment, and subscribe.

47:26.079 --> 47:27.320
[SPEAKER_01]: Join us on social media.

47:27.901 --> 47:29.643
[SPEAKER_01]: One link to the link tree has it all.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Feel free to drop us a line at truecrimeantauthors at gmail.com.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Cover art and logo designed by Arslin.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sound mixing and editing by David McClam.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Intro script by Sophie Wilde and David McClam.

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[SPEAKER_01]: theme music, legendary by new alchemist.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Introduction and ending credits by Jackie Voice.

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[SPEAKER_01]: See you next time on True Crime, Authors and Extraordinary People!