Nov. 24, 2025

Madmen:Author M.F. Gross

Get your copy of Madmen HERE Learn more about M.F. Gross and his book HERE A quiet Florida beach town. A polite visitor who lingers over coffee. By afternoon, a man lies dead, his wife barely alive, and a shotgun-toting stranger vanishes into the woods. We sit down with best-selling author MF Gross to unpack the 1949 Crystal Beach murder that locals still whisper about—and the chase that turned a neighborhood horror into a regional legend. We start with the world as it was: Crystal Beach,...

Get your copy of Madmen HERE

Learn more about M.F. Gross and his book HERE

A quiet Florida beach town. A polite visitor who lingers over coffee. By afternoon, a man lies dead, his wife barely alive, and a shotgun-toting stranger vanishes into the woods. We sit down with best-selling author MF Gross to unpack the 1949 Crystal Beach murder that locals still whisper about—and the chase that turned a neighborhood horror into a regional legend.

We start with the world as it was: Crystal Beach, a place so safe neighbors swapped keys and kids roamed free. Then we meet Norman and Ann Brown, modest retirees with a complicated backstory, and John “Rastus” Russell, a muscular charmer known to police, institutions, and—perhaps—to the Browns themselves. Gross walks us through the three-and-a-half-hour kitchen conversation that makes everything feel off. Ann’s shifting explanations. A shotgun kept in the bathroom for rattlesnakes. The moment hospitality turns into terror. The beating, the knife, the demands for money that might have existed—or might be myth.

The story doesn’t end at the bedroom door. A young couple arrives to drop off their baby and collides head-on with Russell on the porch. A desperate fight, a gut-shot escape, a near-tragedy averted by a mis-thrown gear, and then the woods swallow the killer. What follows is a month-long manhunt across multiple counties, threaded with a taboo love story and rumors of powerful friends. Gross shares research, interviews, and a theory that the survivor’s contradictions hint at hidden ties. He also explores Russell’s Jekyll and Hyde psychology—courteous and calm until something flips—and explains why this saga feels destined for a miniseries more than a single film.

If you love true crime that digs deeper than gore—into small-town memory, flawed systems, and the muddy space between rumor and truth—this conversation delivers. Stay to the end for where to find the book, bonus materials from the real locations, and the audiobook narrated by George Newbern.

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Extinguished With David McClam & LaDonna Humphrey

Cover Art and Logo created by Diana of Other Worldly

Sound Mixing and editing by David McClam

Intro script by Sophie Wild From Fiverr & David McClam

Intro and outro jingle by Jacqueline G. (JacquieVoice) From Fiverr

Chapters

00:00 - Welcome, Safety Message, Housekeeping

01:11 - Meet Author MF Gross

02:25 - Crystal Beach In 1949

04:05 - Shockwaves In A Crime-Free Town

05:15 - The Browns And Their Backstory

07:06 - Who Was Rastus Russell

10:09 - Alleged Connections And Leniency

11:28 - The Morning Of August 7th

14:42 - Coffee, Alibis, And A Loaded Shotgun

17:10 - Torture, Murder, And Survival

19:05 - The Neighbors Arrive And Chaos Erupts

22:34 - Did Ann Know More

24:40 - Why A Shotgun In The Bathroom

26:05 - How The Author Found The Case

28:02 - Beyond The Murder: Chase And Myth

30:03 - Page To Screen: Film Or Miniseries

33:02 - Dream Casting And Psychology

35:25 - Why Read Madman

37:14 - Events, Extras, And Audiobook

Transcript

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Welcome to True Crime, authors and extraordinary people.

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The podcast where we bring two passions together.

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The show that gives new meaning to the old adage, Truth is stranger than fiction.

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And reminding you that there is an extraordinary person in all of us.

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Here is your host, David McClam.

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What's good on everybody, and welcome to another episode of True Crime Authors and Extraordinary People.

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Of course, I'm your man, David McClam.

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If you guys haven't already, make sure you follow us on all of our social media.

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One link to a link tree will get you every place you need to go pertaining to the show.

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And just in case, like you always hear me say at the beginning, if you are someone and you know somebody who feels like hurting themselves or someone else, please leave this episode down 988.

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It is the Suicide Prevention Hotline.

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You can call or text them.

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They will get you the help that you need.

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In a case the witness has told you this today, let me be the first to say I do care and I do need you to be here.

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Well, if you're paying attention, it is now time again for another author episode.

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Let me tell you who our guest is today.

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He is a best-selling author and storyteller drawn to the hidden histories that shape our world.

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A former financial writer, turned true crime investigator, he spent a year meticulously uncovering the long-forgotten 1949 Crystal Beach murder that became the hunting core of his book.

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He is the best-selling author and the author of Mad Men.

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Please welcome MF Gross.

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How are you doing, man?

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Great, David.

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Great to be here.

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Thanks for having me on the show today.

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Well, thank you for coming on the show.

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I'm going to start with the number one question I ask every author interview and every guest.

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Is there anything else that we should know about MF Gross that was not covered in your intro?

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Well, there's probably a lot.

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We probably don't have time for all that today.

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Probably one interesting thing I didn't put in my intro is I owe a lot of the writing to my four-year-old Sheltie who sat at my feet most of the time I was writing the book.

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So she's kind of my muse for the book.

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All right.

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So my first question is this story happened in 1949, Florida.

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Crystal Beach to be exact.

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Can you tell us what it was like at that particular time from your research and stuff that you've done there at Crystal Beach?

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Sure.

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Crystal Beach in 1949 was about as close to an idyllic American little beach town as you could get.

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There was a very small population.

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They did have snowbirds that came over the winter from up north.

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These were typically well-heeled people that stayed up north and then would come down and spend the winters in Florida.

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But there was a pretty good year-round population as well.

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Very little crime.

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In fact, the biggest crime you would ever see here would be a cat in a tree or somebody drinks too much on Friday night because they were like everybody knew each other.

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So it wasn't like crime was even existent here.

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And it was like a beachside Mayberry, if you can imagine that.

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So I'm probably gonna say that if there is very little crime there, and that what you've written that we're gonna talk about, madman had to send shockwaves across Crystal Beach.

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I'm also assuming it's like any other Florida town, probably during the summer, very hot, very humid.

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I'm from Way Cross, Georgia, so border on Florida.

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So I've been there many times.

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So I know the weather is very hot.

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I live in California now.

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I think it's the only second place I've live that gets as hot.

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Well, it's just a third.

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I did live in Arizona for a while.

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But with this being the big crime that it was, what shockwaves can you tell me that it actually did send once it got around town?

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Well, because of that characteristic of the town, that there was such little crime, it was such a close-knit community.

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This horrific of a crime made it all the more traumatic for not only Crystal Beach residents, but the community surrounding Crystal Beach.

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And I think that's why it stuck in people's minds for so long, even through today.

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The people I interviewed that were children then, I mean, it was just traumatizing for them.

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And to a person, they all remember this as like this horrific event of their childhood.

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It affected them that much.

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They remember being locked in their bedrooms, my dad's on the porch with a shotgun at night.

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They were terrified.

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He was a real-life Freddy Krueger.

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And there were songs written about it, there were local legends that grew up about it.

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So it really made an impression in the minds of these people.

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So let's go ahead and break down what I consider to be the three main characters of this book.

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So uh for the Ardent's sake, the three main characters I was talking about is Norman Brown, his wife Ann, and of course, James Russell.

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First of all, can you tell us a little bit about Norman Brown and his wife Ann?

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Sure.

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Norman and Ann Brown were retirees.

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They had moved down from New York City.

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They were on a very low income.

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Norman was living on his pension.

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He worked for an electric company.

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And Norman had actually divorced Ann several years earlier.

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He remarried, he moved with his second wife to Crystal Beach.

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And shortly after he moved there, it was in 1947, his second wife died.

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Upon which point, Norman returned to New York, remarried Ann, his first wife, 77 days later, and moved back to Crystal Beach.

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So there was some eyebrow raising about that afterwards, but that was kind of scandalous at the time.

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But they were people of supposedly limited means.

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They lived on the very edge of Crystal Beach in a very isolated area.

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It was in the woods.

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And that's where they were on this morning in 1949.

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So now we kind of know who the victims are.

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Can you tell us a little bit about James Rastus Russell?

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Yes.

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Actually, David, it's John Calvin Russell.

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His nickname was Rastus.

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I don't know how I got found in there.

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That's well, actually, that was one of his aliases.

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He used aliases, and one of the aliases he used was James Sullivan.

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Okay.

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So that's probably where he got it from.

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But Rastus Russell was a well-known troublemaker in the area.

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The larger area is Palm Harbor, which is really the Crystal Beach is kind of on a little separate corner of Palm Harbor.

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But Rastus Russell was well known in Palm Harbor.

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He'd been arrested many times.

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He'd been in and out of mental institutions.

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He'd spent some time in prison, primarily for things like car theft, burglary, assault.

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He was kind of an all-around ne'er do well.

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Well known to local police.

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He had disappeared for seven years, and that's a whole different story that's covered in the book, but spent some time in Chicago.

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He got arrested there for car theft.

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Did some time in Chicago, actually escaped from an institution up there and came back down here and was hauled back there by the FBI to do his time.

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He ended up only doing about a year up there in prison.

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And he comes back to Palm Harbor in night in early 1949 to stay with his aunt.

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And that is when he crossed his path with the Browns, which was actually three months prior to the murder.

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So is it just because the year that we're in in 49 versus now?

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Because you know now if you escape prison, they pretty much lock you away and try to throw away the key.

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But did he do that year solidly after he got caught and didn't release again?

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Well, Rastus Russell had been, he'd actually been a patient at, or a uh I don't know if you call him a patient or an inmate at Chattahoochee State Mental Hospital in Florida.

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He escaped from there.

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He escaped from a jail in Illinois.

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Various other times he had committed these crimes and for whatever reason ended up doing very little time or was outright released.

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He was on trial in 1941 for attempted murder, and which an assault on a police officer in addition to attempted murder.

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And the judge just let him go, let him leave the state.

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And it it really fueled a lot of speculation as to whether Rastus Russell had friends in high places.

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And that is one of the topics we do explore in the book.

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And there are some very, I don't want to call them coincidental things that happen, but very suspicious things that happen that suggest that.

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So of course I'm being very vague, people, because I want you guys to go and read this book.

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If I gave you everything away on here, you wouldn't have to go read it.

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So to find out all of these things that he's talking about that you know you think that Rastus Russell may have some connections, you have to go and read the book.

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All right, so let's jump into what took place on August 7, 1949.

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August 7th, 1949, it's about 6:30 in the morning when Rastus Russell pulls into the front driveway of Norman and Ann Brown.

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He knows them.

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He has been to their house three months earlier.

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And why he was there remains a mystery to this day.

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Ann Brown claims he was there to repair a well pump.

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And then she changes her story and says he was there because his car broke down and he needed to put water in it.

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And then she claims, changes her story again and says he was there to look at their house, which was for sale at the time.

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So one of the major themes of the book is did Rastus Russell know Anna Norman Braun?

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Were they not the innocent retirees they were made out to be in the paper at the time?

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Were they somehow involved with him in some way?

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And when he shows up at their doorstep on August 7th, they know who he is, they greet him, they invite him inside.

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He sits at their kitchen table drinking coffee and talking with them, according to Ann Brown, about all manner of things for three and a half hours.

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Ann Brown claims afterwards that she doesn't know his name.

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Now, if you've met somebody three months earlier and they come back to your house, they spend three and a half hours having coffee with you, and you don't know their name, you never even think to ask their name, that is suspicious right there.

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But what happens, to make a very long story short, is Rastus Russell, sometime after that three and a half hour point, something goes terribly wrong.

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He he asks to go to the restroom or go to use their bathroom.

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Norman Brown has a 12-gauge shotgun leaning against the wall in there.

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He grabs the shotgun, he brings it out, he turns it on them, demands he wants money.

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He's convinced there's money in this house.

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And he says, Where do you keep the money?

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And they say, We don't have any money.

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We're poor, we're retirees.

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He marches them into the garage, he ties them up, he again tries to get money from them.

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They still say they don't have any.

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A number of things transpire.

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He takes them back in the house, he ties them both spread eagle.

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They have single beds in their bedroom, so they're each tied spread eagle to their beds.

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And then he gets a butcher knife out, and he starts cutting on them, stabbing them, beating them with the shotgun, all in an effort to get them to tell him where this money is.

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And finally he gets so frustrated that he just loses it, goes berserk on Norman Brown and just stabs him to death violently in the bed.

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He uh he cuts on Mrs.

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Brown, he beats Mrs.

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Brown, but he ends up not killing her for whatever reason.

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And this all takes place over a period of hours.

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I mean, it's it's not just happening over 10 minutes.

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He's there until the murder doesn't take place till one o'clock in the afternoon.

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And when he is done, he goes out and he's sitting on their front porch with a sawed off shotgun in his lap.

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Norman Brown's dead, tied to the bed, carved horribly up, and Brown's severely injured, laying on the bed.

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And that's when the second part of this crime takes place.

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So my true crime brain just works a whole lot different than some people's.

00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:43.440
But when I was reading this part, my thought pattern kind of went to could this been a possible setup by and did she really know what he was there for?

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The reason I come to that conclusion is because out of the two victims, she still stays alive and breathes.

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She told like three different stories about who he was, or at least why he was supposed to be there.

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So to be it's like, did she know something?

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Is something going on?

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When you were writing the book, did you have those thoughts as well?

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Yeah, you know, I'll I'll share something with you, David, that in writing the book, you you're researching so many different aspects and views.

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At some point, they all start to come together and you start to piece things together and say, if this happened, then that would mean this.

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There's no proof.

00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:22.000
There's no proof.

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But my theory after writing the book, and I do speculate on this at the end of the book, is that Ann and Norman Brown were indeed involved with Rastus Russell somehow.

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This was not a random stranger who showed up at their house and demanded money.

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Again, going back to the fact that he spent three and a half hours having coffee with them.

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And the fact that three months earlier, right after their meeting, he left the state and was gone for two months plays into this theory that I lay out.

00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:08.799
But the fact that Ann Brown was not killed and claims she only had$30 that Rastus Russell escaped with, one of my alternative theories is that Rastus Russell indeed did leave with money or jewels or both.

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After seeing Norman get killed in front of her, she she gives it up.

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That was one of my theories.

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That's just a theory, but but there's something there just from the inconsistencies of her story that just don't add up.

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There's just so many things that don't add up from her story.

00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:30.559
And I'm convinced that yes, they were somehow involved with him.

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Yeah, because the thing with me is, I mean, I've never been to somebody's house I didn't know and felt comfortable enough to be there three and a half hours just drinking coffee and shooting the breeze.

00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:41.840
So I agree with you on that.

00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:44.480
That kind of went into my mind as well.

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But the other thing is, is Ann Brown is the only witness to this crime, right?

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So this story is solely based on what she's telling everybody.

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That part of the story, yes.

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She's the only witness we have to the crime.

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However, Russell himself, after he's arrested later, gives an interview to reporters.

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And they ask him if he knew the Browns.

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And he said, Yes, I did know the Browns.

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And they they ask him to elaborate on it.

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And he said, Well, there's a lot of things I can say, but I'm not going to say anything until I get an attorney.

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And we never got to hear what those things were because he escaped shortly after that, and the story unfolds.

00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:36.000
But it's almost like the Lee Harvey Oswald thing.

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If if we would have got to hear what he had to say, how much light would that have shed on the whole story?

00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:49.840
So I think that in the boogie wrote that there was, I think, a black 1946 Ford, there was a gentleman driving in, and I believe Ann recognized him.

00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:52.080
Do we know who that person was?

00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.039
Yes, that was at the very beginning, and that was Russell.

00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.600
He arrived in a 1946 Ford.

00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:04.880
He drove past the house once, and that's when she saw him go by and thought she might recognize them.

00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:08.880
And he went down the road, he turned around and came back, and that's when he pulled in the drives.

00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:09.920
Yeah, that's weird too.

00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:12.559
Why would he drive past the house once to see if they're there?

00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:13.039
I don't know.

00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:13.359
Right.

00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:15.359
It's kind of like casing the joint out, right?

00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:16.480
Yeah, yeah, maybe.

00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:18.880
Maybe seeing if they're there, if they're available.

00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:26.799
But yeah, that's that three and a half hours sounds more like a negotiation to me.

00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:28.640
Yeah, that always troubled me.

00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:34.559
The other thing that troubled me about that too is as far as you know, did he always keep a shotgun in the bathroom?

00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:43.839
Well, yeah, they lived out in the corner of the woods of Crystal Beach, and it was the road they lived on was called Rattlesnake Road.

00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:52.960
And that was for good reason because if you're familiar with the wilderness of Florida, it's like excellent breeding ground for rattlesnakes.

00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:57.279
And so there was not only rattlesnakes, there was other wildlife there.

00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:59.839
And Norman kept a shotgun there.

00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:05.279
For just in fact, just a few days earlier, he had shot a six-foot rattlesnake in the backyard.

00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:08.799
He had cut it open and had 22 babies in it.

00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:10.319
Holy cow.

00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:14.559
And David, just for your information, I I I lived, I live there.

00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:20.960
I mean, I not in the house, but I lived about a hundred yards from where this took place, which is how I got interested in the story.

00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:25.039
And I can tell you from firsthand knowledge, there are still rattlesnakes back there.

00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:31.279
Now, I mean, I don't want to give too much away, but this book, so that's just one of the stories, if you can believe that.

00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:33.680
So that's just one part, the whole murder thing.

00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:36.480
Can you give us a little taste of the second part?

00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:42.960
What goes in after now that Norman Brown is dead and has been injured, Russell escapes.

00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.039
What happens a little bit now after that?

00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:52.720
Yeah, there's a yeah, a lot of people think the story is just a murder, and that's actually just the beginning of the story.

00:18:52.880 --> 00:19:02.240
I mean, that this story goes so far, and there's so many things that happen in it that you think this can't be real.

00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:03.519
Somebody must have made this up.

00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:11.359
When I first got the whole story together, I was like, this seems like a movie, and it wouldn't even be a believable movie.

00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:13.359
All this stuff that happened.

00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:26.640
This ends up being like a month-long saga that involves escape, a huge cat and mouse chase that takes place through three different counties around the Tampa Bay area.

00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:43.119
There is this twisted love story that's that's intertwined in the whole thing where Rastus has this thing going on with a 16-year-old girl, and that also breeds a lot of suspicion in the what was going on, how much her and her family were involved.

00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:59.039
So there's so many things that take place, but the second part of this crime is as he's sitting on the porch, the neighbors pull up because they have the Browns had agreed to watch their baby daughter while they went swimming that afternoon.

00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:00.799
It's Sunday afternoon.

00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:07.839
This couple owned a store in Crystal Beach, the only little general store on Crystal Beach, and Sunday's their only day off.

00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:19.680
So they Browns had agreed to watch their baby daughter, she's eight months old, while Miles and Thelma Crumb, which is the name of this young couple, go swimming.

00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:27.359
Well, as Rastus is sitting out on the on the back of the front porch with a shotgun propped in his lap, here come the crumbs.

00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:29.279
They pull up in their Jeep.

00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.279
Miles Crumb, he's actually younger than Rastus.

00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.839
He's 31, he's just got out of the military, so he's no slouch himself.

00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:42.799
And Rastus Rutzel is a big muscular guy.

00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:46.000
He's a huge man for his time.

00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:51.759
And he's on the front porch and Miles walks up and sees this stranger on the porch.

00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:54.799
He's got a bloody t-shirt, he's holding a sawed-off shotgun.

00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:58.640
Well, Miles immediately knows something isn't right with his picture.

00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:00.480
He says, What's going on here?

00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:05.039
Russell points the shotgun at his face and says, Get in the house.

00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:10.480
Miles initially starts to comply, but then he makes his move.

00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.519
He grabs the gun and they go tumbling to the floor.

00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:15.519
They're in this death struggle for the gun.

00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.319
Miles himself says, I almost had him.

00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:19.519
I almost had him.

00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:24.160
And if he would have, none of the rest of the story probably would have played out.

00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:32.960
But unfortunately, Russell was able to pull away from him, drops back, dropped to his knee, and fires a shotgun right into his gut.

00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.079
And Miles collapses on the ground outside.

00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.880
His wife comes running up with the baby.

00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:49.440
Russell approaches the wife, points the shotgun at her face, and as he does, she she instinctively drops the baby.

00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:57.119
Whether she dropped it, threw it, pushed it out of harm's way, whatever she's doing, and he pulls the trigger.

00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.279
But nothing happens.

00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:03.839
He either didn't have another shell in the breach or the gun jammed.

00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:07.920
So he takes the shotgun instead and clubs her over the head with it.

00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.880
She falls to the ground unconscious.

00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.400
Miles, meanwhile, has crawled back to the Jeep.

00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.319
He's holding his insides inside with one hand.

00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.000
With the other hand, he manages to pull himself into the Jeep.

00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:27.519
He starts the Jeep, and as he looks up, there's Russell standing in front of the Jeep with the shotgun.

00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:35.440
But Miles sees an opportunity and he slams the Jeep into gear and slams on the gas and he's going to run Russell over.

00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:45.920
What he doesn't know, David, is that when Thelma dropped the baby, it's laying right in front of the right front tire of the Jeep.

00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:58.319
Fortunately, to make a horrible story, not quite as horrible as it could have been, the Jeep, he accidentally has slammed it in reverse in his haste, and he goes flying backwards instead into the fence.

00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.960
He slams it back into gear and he goes tearing out of the yard down to a neighbor's house.

00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:06.559
And eventually, you know, the neighbor calls ambulance.

00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.759
Thelma awakens, she sees the baby, she grabs the baby.

00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.920
A few minutes later, she comes running through the woods carrying her baby.

00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:20.160
She's bloody, she's sweating, obviously traumatized from the whole thing.

00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:27.039
And that is where finally the neighbors call for help, and ambulance and police start showing up after that.

00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:29.119
But by that point, Russell was long gone.

00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:31.519
You guys must go read this book.

00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:33.519
It is definitely a page turner.

00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.319
You look like a very young cat to me.

00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:42.000
So how did you get involved with this particular story that happened in 1949?

00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.519
That's a great question.

00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:49.359
I never set out to say, you know, I think I'm going to be a true crime writer.

00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.519
Let me go find a story to write about.

00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.960
I'd been in the financial industry for over 20 years.

00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:58.160
I just recently had retired from that business.

00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:01.200
And I was just taking it easy.

00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:07.200
I was out on my dock one day and I and I was reading a book, and it was about local Crystal Beach history.

00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:16.559
A lot of it was just about the good times growing up in Crystal Beach and what it was like and the picnics and swimming and fishing and all that stuff.

00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:24.400
And in between all these stories, I came across this dark story that I'd never heard of about Rastus Russell.

00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:33.119
And this older lady that lived in Crystal Beach relayed the story of how when she was a little girl, she was six years old when this happened.

00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:40.160
And she remembered the day after walking up to this house and looking in the window.

00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:46.559
And she says, All I could remember is all the blood that was everywhere on the walls, on the floor.

00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:49.119
And it just burned into her memory.

00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:53.279
But even more so, she said, the smell, there was just this smell.

00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:57.920
And even today, when she walks back there, she says, I still smell that smell.

00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:00.880
And so I know I don't walk back there anymore.

00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:03.279
And I said, Oh man, does that sound creepy?

00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:04.640
I gotta look into this.

00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:13.359
And when I started pulling up the old newspaper files on it, I just became fascinated and said, I can't believe there's not a book on this yet.

00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:17.279
So I had to write the book, and that's uh that's how we got mad man.

00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:26.160
So you're kind of like me, because a lot of people think that those of us that do true crime, we get into it for the fascination and the horror and the gore.

00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:27.200
And it's not like that.

00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:28.160
It's kind of like you.

00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:35.279
A lot of my audience knows that I came into true crime because of the whole Jim Jones and the guy in the tragedy situation.

00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:49.599
I was only six years old when it happened, but because I grew up with the great powers booth, who did an actual good job when he played Jim Jones in the actual picture, I got fascinated and wanted to learn more about what happened.

00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:52.160
So you start to dig into these things, right?

00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:57.359
And you find out that maybe everything wasn't quite like it seemed at the beginning, at least.

00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:00.240
And then you get into this true crime situation.

00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:11.359
So I do think that true crime kind of finds us because there's those of us that does like true crime for the whore and the gore, but people like you and myself, we want to know more about it.

00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:12.799
What was the research behind it?

00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:14.160
What was the reason behind it?

00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:15.680
What was these people like?

00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:19.759
And I think that's what kind of drew you into it as well as myself.

00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:21.039
Absolutely, David.

00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:24.640
It was more a fascination with the story.

00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:36.000
And I said before, I said on my blog that for me, I didn't, I wrote the book almost for myself because I was so fascinated with the story and and how it turned out.

00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:38.319
And I just chose to share it with other people.

00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:40.400
But yes, I know exactly what you're saying.

00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:50.079
You you it's not a fascination with the gore, it's a fascination with the story and trying to figure out what really happened.

00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.039
And that's that's where it was for me.

00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:58.319
Now, this book is like a Hollywood movie.

00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:13.359
The way it's been written, you do an excellent job of writing that, is almost like if you sent this to somebody and said, this is a script of a new movie, it's just a matter of picking out what characters or who plays what characters.

00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:20.319
I think I did read on your website that this is something that is very much about to take place or is in the talks right now.

00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:24.319
Can you tell us a little bit about Madman turning itself into a movie?

00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:25.680
Absolutely.

00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:31.119
I originally, when I started writing the book, I knew ultimately that's where that's where this should be.

00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:32.559
This this should be on screen.

00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:36.240
It's it's that good of a story, but I wrote the book with that aim in mind.

00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:54.400
I was able to contact a screenwriter who actually thought it might make a better miniseries, and we got a script created for a pilot, and I actually was able to meet a couple producers and have made some inroads into that community.

00:27:54.559 --> 00:28:02.160
But the the screenplay was submitted to several different producers.

00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:14.880
We actually got callbacks from Netflix and I don't have my list with me now, but there's there's two or three other ones that requested copies of the book.

00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:16.319
So that's where we are now.

00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:30.559
We are have our fingers crossed, but if not, we're also exploring some indie avenues to possibly do, at the very least, a documentary and hopefully at some point either an indie film or a larger studio film.

00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:35.119
I will say I do agree with the suggestion of a miniseries.

00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:41.279
I think you can, I mean, you can make a movie, it could be one to three hours, one time, or miniseries.

00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:44.160
I think you could take this story and breathe it, right?

00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:49.440
Um, you can probably get three, four seasons, if not more, uh, out of it.

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:55.759
I do live not far from what is considered to be the movie capital of the world, which is Burbank, California.

00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:58.799
Every studio in the world is imaginable is there.

00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:01.440
Netflix is right on the way there.

00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:03.839
So I do wish you good luck with that.

00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:06.160
Here's a uh a fun question.

00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:14.079
In your mind, as the author, have you thought about who you would want Hollywood Star Wise to play each role?

00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:15.599
Absolutely.

00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:22.400
In fact, that's conversations we I've had with producer and screenwriter that they've asked, we've had discussions.

00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:32.480
My problem, David, is I'm from a little bit older generation where all my references are guys that were popular 20, 30 years ago.

00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:38.160
But if I had my choice, the perfect Rastus Russell is Edward Norton Jr.

00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:40.880
He's a little bit old, too old to play the role now.

00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:44.880
But Ed, if you're listening, we could always make you up a little bit younger.

00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:50.799
I think he'd be the in his prime, he would be the the epitome Rastus Russell.

00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:58.480
And for Walter Carey, the the policeman pursuing him, I think Nick Nolte, a younger Nick Nolte, would be the perfect guy.

00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:01.119
But um, he even looks Like him in his picture.

00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:06.480
But uh for modern day guys, yeah, I thought Walton Goggins would make a perfect Rastus too.

00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:14.400
But even he's, you know, Russell was only 34 years old, so Goggins might be even a little too old to play the role now.

00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:17.119
But those are the two guys I had in mind for Russell.

00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:18.480
Well, Edward Norton Jr.

00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:20.400
is 56 now, I believe.

00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:21.839
I think we can make him up.

00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:24.319
I think he would be a perfect Rastus, Russell.

00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:29.839
I say this because one of my favorite movies that Edward Norton ever did was called Primal Fear.

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:31.200
Have you ever seen that movie?

00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:32.319
Love that movie.

00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:35.279
Yeah, that's probably why I had him from that movie.

00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:40.079
I mean, I don't think he got the just desserts that he deserved for that movie.

00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:41.519
That was an incredible role.

00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:47.279
And then just to get to the end of the movie and figure out what happened with him was the most shocking twist ever.

00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:48.960
So I do agree with Edward Norton Jr.

00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:49.440
for sure.

00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:51.599
I think he could still pull it off at his age.

00:30:51.920 --> 00:31:00.640
Yeah, he's got this kind of uh sinister side to him that you're always a little bit afraid of him, you're never not sure where he's gonna go.

00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:16.160
But in that movie, it it's interesting because Russell, to most people, even the people I interviewed, and the one person I interviewed that actually knew Russell, said he he was the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet.

00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:22.079
He said he was he was friendly, he had manners, he was good looking, he was muscular, he was mild-mannered.

00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:34.240
But psychologists later that that analyzed him said he had something called a Jekyll Hyde personality where he could be normal most of the time.

00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:38.079
And then for some reason, he it's like flipping a switch.

00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:43.119
You could turn it and he would turn into this violent animal.

00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:50.400
And that's probably what was wrong with him, and Norton would play that role so great.

00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:55.519
I mean, he did it you know, fight club, and then in Primal Fear, that same thing.

00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:57.839
So yeah, that's why I thought he'd make a perfect Russell.

00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:03.279
Yeah, especially in Primal Fear, it was it was just like snapping your fingers, and he just turned.

00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:04.160
Yeah.

00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:10.640
In closing, I mean, there's so much into this book we can get into, but I don't want to give it all away to people.

00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:22.720
I do want to have you come back, I think, in the next couple of months or so, after a lot of people have gotten the book and read it completely, because there is definitely more conversation that we can have around just this one book.

00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:25.279
I interviewed many authors.

00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:34.319
You're probably like only the second one that I've that's had a book that I could actually do two or three episodes on and learn something different each episode.

00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:40.400
Why don't you tell the audience in your own words why they should go out and pick up a copy of Mad Men?

00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:43.440
I think because it's it's such a deep story.

00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:47.759
There's so many little rabbit holes this story goes down, and there's so many.

00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:59.839
If you think of the movie Jaws, where initially it's about sharks eating people on the beach, you know, they have that initial crime where the shark's killing people on the beach, and then it transforms.

00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:04.960
There's like a second half of the movie where they're out on the water chasing the shark.

00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:08.240
And it's different from the first half of the movie.

00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:15.839
It goes from this kind of horror movie into this exciting chase movie, and that's exactly what this book follows.

00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:44.079