Lindsay Clancy: The Trial, The 11-1 Deadlock, And the case that Failed!

WEBVTT

00:00.051 --> 00:05.458
[UNKNOWN]: And Lindsey was simply a calculating mother looking for an opportunity to murder her children.

00:06.118 --> 00:10.263
[UNKNOWN]: Why didn't he act during previous longer periods alone with him?

00:10.624 --> 00:13.828
[UNKNOWN]: Prosecution argued January 24th was the moment she chose.

00:15.025 --> 00:16.045
[UNKNOWN]: that is possible.

00:16.625 --> 00:19.526
[UNKNOWN]: But the defense interpretation is also plausible.

00:20.106 --> 00:25.407
[UNKNOWN]: The crime happened when the psyche atject crisis reached this account of strawberry breaking point.

00:25.507 --> 00:27.168
[UNKNOWN]: Psychosis is episodic.

00:27.528 --> 00:29.708
[UNKNOWN]: It does not follow vacations schedules.

00:30.308 --> 00:38.090
[UNKNOWN]: The fact that some remain safe last Tuesday does not prove they could not become a cutely psychotic next Thursday.

00:42.612 --> 00:46.694
[UNKNOWN]: Welcome to True Crime, offers and extraordinary people.

00:47.234 --> 00:50.215
[UNKNOWN]: The podcast where we bring two passions together.

00:50.816 --> 00:53.677
[UNKNOWN]: The show that gives new meaning to the old adage.

00:54.177 --> 01:01.120
[UNKNOWN]: Truth is stranger than fiction, and reminding you that there is an extraordinary person in all of us.

01:01.760 --> 01:03.621
[UNKNOWN]: Here is your host, David McLean.

01:03.661 --> 01:04.041
[UNKNOWN]: What's going on?

01:04.061 --> 01:04.481
[UNKNOWN]: What's going on?

01:04.501 --> 01:04.881
[UNKNOWN]: What's going on?

01:04.921 --> 01:05.322
[UNKNOWN]: What's going on?

01:05.342 --> 01:06.022
[UNKNOWN]: What's going on?

01:06.042 --> 01:06.622
[UNKNOWN]: What's going on?

01:06.642 --> 01:07.082
[UNKNOWN]: What's going on?

01:07.102 --> 01:07.603
[UNKNOWN]: What's going on?

01:07.623 --> 01:08.103
[UNKNOWN]: What's going on?

01:08.743 --> 01:09.744
[UNKNOWN]: David Book Claire.

01:09.804 --> 01:10.905
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe guys haven't already.

01:11.405 --> 01:13.127
[UNKNOWN]: Make sure you follow us on all of our social media.

01:13.647 --> 01:18.752
[UNKNOWN]: One link to a link tree, we get you every place you need to go potato to the show.

01:19.772 --> 01:30.201
[UNKNOWN]: And like I always like to remind you, if you are someone or you know someone who feels like hurting themselves or someone else, please leave this episode in down 988.

01:30.541 --> 01:32.623
[UNKNOWN]: It is the suicide prevention

01:33.942 --> 01:36.503
[UNKNOWN]: they can get you the help that you need.

01:37.103 --> 01:46.346
[UNKNOWN]: And in the case, no one else has told you this today, they may be the first one to tell you, I do care, and I do need you to be here.

01:46.927 --> 01:50.948
[UNKNOWN]: There's nothing worth yours, or someone else's life.

01:52.299 --> 01:56.602
[UNKNOWN]: All right, before we begin, it may make one correction from a last episode.

01:57.102 --> 02:05.848
[UNKNOWN]: I believe I said that Karen Reed was found guilty of leave and then I said she was found not guilty on the second or something like that.

02:06.048 --> 02:12.072
[UNKNOWN]: What I meant to say was that her first trial ended in a mistrial because the jury was hung.

02:12.532 --> 02:16.134
[UNKNOWN]: And her second trial, she was found not guilty.

02:16.295 --> 02:19.577
[UNKNOWN]: All right, so today as promised, I am back.

02:20.157 --> 02:31.520
[UNKNOWN]: A few days ago, the Lindsey Clancy case ended and now I'm going to bring you the full case and what I thought about it and so on and so forth.

02:32.962 --> 02:37.364
[UNKNOWN]: I do want to say this to you guys because I think I have made a loop into this before.

02:37.984 --> 02:44.588
[UNKNOWN]: Those of us who's done this a long time, we write scripts or someone writes a script for us because we're, we have to stay on track.

02:44.608 --> 02:45.968
[UNKNOWN]: We can't go off the rails.

02:46.429 --> 02:55.353
[UNKNOWN]: Some people has a production team that reads their whole script with what they want to say because they don't want to get sued or give misinformation.

02:55.873 --> 02:57.114
[UNKNOWN]: No, I do write a script.

02:57.474 --> 03:03.436
[UNKNOWN]: I write my own and then I have it ran through just to make sure all of my facts is right and checked in.

03:03.856 --> 03:05.337
[UNKNOWN]: I'm not stating something that's false.

03:06.277 --> 03:09.799
[UNKNOWN]: Uh, and also I'm told what I should and how I shouldn't say things.

03:10.239 --> 03:11.880
[UNKNOWN]: I have to remember this like you guys do.

03:12.883 --> 03:14.945
[UNKNOWN]: I am considered part of the medium.

03:15.545 --> 03:24.072
[UNKNOWN]: I report true crime content and sometimes people do like to sue those of us who they say things wrong.

03:24.733 --> 03:33.600
[UNKNOWN]: So while I'm saying that is because when I wrote the script, I had to write this script and fairness with the evidence, what was shown in court and what was there.

03:33.720 --> 03:37.363
[UNKNOWN]: At the end, I will give you by opinion.

03:37.843 --> 03:43.066
[UNKNOWN]: The reason I'm saying next, I told him until you all know I feel about Patrick Clancy and I don't somebody's going to come back and say, Oh, that was solved.

03:43.086 --> 04:00.576
[UNKNOWN]: Well, I have to give you the facts that at the end, I'm going to give you what I think I have to be fair to all parties involved and take from what was in court, what was in court documents, what was actually evidence, what we can improve and what we can.

04:02.272 --> 04:13.804
[UNKNOWN]: And at this script, though, sometimes there is things that I wanted to say and didn't, so I will interject those, because when you write this stuff down, you're trying to be factual, sometimes you forget some stuff, when you're going to throw that stuff in.

04:14.445 --> 04:16.727
[UNKNOWN]: So I just want to let you guys know, I'm always dealing with y'all.

04:16.987 --> 04:21.172
[UNKNOWN]: You know, some of y'all feel like that the people you guys want to get true crime, they just make this stuff up.

04:21.592 --> 04:25.516
[UNKNOWN]: I can tell you for the first eight and a half years in my career, I never use this script.

04:26.112 --> 04:34.465
[UNKNOWN]: So if you go back to any older episodes up to two years ago, almost never use the script top of the head, I was told that that was crazy.

04:35.450 --> 04:38.492
[UNKNOWN]: But I want you guys to get my real emotion from that.

04:38.912 --> 04:44.436
[UNKNOWN]: And maybe some things I said back then with no script and nothing front of me and nobody reading and see what our road was reckless.

04:44.816 --> 04:45.776
[UNKNOWN]: Never pursued, though.

04:46.357 --> 04:48.678
[UNKNOWN]: But I can still do that here.

04:49.258 --> 04:54.302
[UNKNOWN]: So I wanted to be transparent with you guys and let you know, this is what happens.

04:54.342 --> 04:55.462
[UNKNOWN]: Be right all this stuff down.

04:55.482 --> 04:56.243
[UNKNOWN]: We write this script.

04:56.263 --> 05:01.086
[UNKNOWN]: So I want to leave it reading because we wrote still specific for the case that we want you guys to know.

05:01.646 --> 05:01.866
[UNKNOWN]: All right.

05:01.886 --> 05:02.567
[UNKNOWN]: So what that said,

05:03.786 --> 05:05.287
[UNKNOWN]: Let's jump into this episode.

05:05.367 --> 05:12.169
[UNKNOWN]: I'm calling this one Lindsey Clancy, the trial, the 11 to one deadlock in the case, that failed.

05:13.170 --> 05:18.832
[UNKNOWN]: I'm gonna warn you guys, this is gonna be a little bit longer one because I have never fully covered this case.

05:19.312 --> 05:22.113
[UNKNOWN]: So I'm probably gonna have to go back and cover some stuff.

05:22.153 --> 05:32.137
[UNKNOWN]: So everybody who's coming in knows what's happening and as we talk about the verdict, all of you guys will be able to put that stuff with whatever else.

05:33.122 --> 05:48.950
[UNKNOWN]: With that been said, before we began to give you a warning, this episode involves the deaths of three young children, suicide, severe mental illness, postpartum psychosis and graphic issues discussed during a murder trial.

05:49.771 --> 05:52.352
[UNKNOWN]: The children in this case were five year old

06:02.032 --> 06:15.346
[UNKNOWN]: Because regardless of what you believe about their mother, regardless of what you believe about the prosecution, and the defense, the medical system, or the jury, these three children died.

06:16.483 --> 06:23.947
[UNKNOWN]: In nothing we discuss today, she's allowed them to disappear behind the adults, but this is also a case about something much larger.

06:24.667 --> 06:34.353
[UNKNOWN]: Mental illness, the American mental health system, criminal responsibility, the insanity defense, and the power of one juror.

06:34.613 --> 06:42.037
[UNKNOWN]: And what happens when 11 jurors apparently reach one conclusion and a 12 refuses to join them?

06:43.609 --> 07:06.366
[UNKNOWN]: On September 4th, 2026, after more than five weeks of trial and more than 38 hours of deliberations are crossed seven days, judge William Sullivan declared a mistrial in the case of the Commonwealth versus Lindsey Clancy, not because six jurors wanted conviction and six wanted acquittal, not because this dream was split down the middle.

07:07.067 --> 07:12.991
[UNKNOWN]: According to what was he built in court, 11 jurors favored acquittal and one juror was holding out.

07:14.044 --> 07:18.645
[UNKNOWN]: And according to the jury for person, the problem was not simply that this man disagreed.

07:19.285 --> 07:28.408
[UNKNOWN]: The allegation was that he acknowledged reasonable doubt, but would not apply the law requiring the benefit of that doubt to go to Lindsey Clancy.

07:29.188 --> 07:33.269
[UNKNOWN]: That distinction is going to matter enormously before we finish today.

07:33.969 --> 07:41.131
[UNKNOWN]: And just for those who maybe are not from America, I understand the judicial system, or if you just don't know, let me kind of clarify why

07:43.126 --> 07:47.588
[UNKNOWN]: This guy admitted that there is reasonable doubt, but he didn't want to apply the law.

07:47.988 --> 08:04.315
[UNKNOWN]: Now, I'm not going to be able to quote it verbatim, but the law that the judge gave is basically if there is reasonable doubt, then you have to vote not guilty, which means if there's anything that they read, saw, listen to, heard,

08:04.996 --> 08:20.061
[UNKNOWN]: that can cause a doubt that this person is guilty or innocent, the law says you must vote guilty because there is reasonable doubt, and at that point the prosecution did not prove their case.

08:20.501 --> 08:30.304
[UNKNOWN]: To vote somebody guilty, there has to be no doubt in your mind that that person did commit that crime.

08:33.709 --> 08:37.272
[UNKNOWN]: All right, because see this trial, it didn't end with a verdict.

08:37.932 --> 08:39.254
[UNKNOWN]: It ended with a failure.

08:39.734 --> 08:41.676
[UNKNOWN]: And I believe there were several failures.

08:42.216 --> 08:47.741
[UNKNOWN]: There was a failure of mental health care, a failure to recognize the psychiatric emergency.

08:48.381 --> 08:51.464
[UNKNOWN]: At times, a failure of prosecution strategy.

08:52.164 --> 09:01.272
[UNKNOWN]: And at the very end, depending upon how you interpret that four-person's note, potentially a failure inside the jury rule itself.

09:02.231 --> 09:11.411
[UNKNOWN]: But if you didn't follow this case in 2023, we need to go all the way back, and because otherwise none of what happened in that courtroom makes sense.

09:12.663 --> 09:24.369
[UNKNOWN]: So in January, 2023, Lindsey Clancy was a 32-year-old labor and delivery nurse living in Dougsbury, Massachusetts with her husband, Patrick, and their three children.

09:25.009 --> 09:29.851
[UNKNOWN]: Core was five, Dawson was three, Kallen was eight months old.

09:30.512 --> 09:33.773
[UNKNOWN]: From the outside, this did like a young suburban family.

09:34.294 --> 09:36.214
[UNKNOWN]: But by the fall of 2022, something was badly wrong.

09:39.537 --> 09:41.258
[UNKNOWN]: Lindsey was suffering from anxiety.

09:41.778 --> 09:42.759
[UNKNOWN]: She could not sleep.

09:43.359 --> 09:45.901
[UNKNOWN]: Her depression became increasingly severe.

09:46.421 --> 09:51.544
[UNKNOWN]: She began seeking psychiatric treatment and medication followed medication.

09:52.024 --> 09:53.945
[UNKNOWN]: Provider followed provider.

09:54.446 --> 09:56.807
[UNKNOWN]: Her condition did not improve.

09:57.719 --> 10:03.661
[UNKNOWN]: Patrick later testified that she kept getting worse and worse by Thanksgiving.

10:04.261 --> 10:11.303
[UNKNOWN]: According to his testimony, she was barely talking, had low energy and was severely depressed.

10:12.103 --> 10:16.645
[UNKNOWN]: By December, Patrick described what he called her big spiral.

10:17.245 --> 10:18.045
[UNKNOWN]: She lost weight.

10:18.653 --> 10:20.194
[UNKNOWN]: She became deeply depressed.

10:20.715 --> 10:22.797
[UNKNOWN]: She began talking about suicide.

10:23.417 --> 10:31.304
[UNKNOWN]: And critically, she told Patrick that she was having intrusive thoughts involving something happening to the children.

10:32.465 --> 10:44.436
[UNKNOWN]: Patrick testified that he asked whether she needed to be kept away from them and she said, no, and this is one of the most important things to understand about severe mental illness.

10:46.368 --> 10:50.970
[UNKNOWN]: Someone does not necessarily spend 24 hours a day looking visibly psychotic.

10:51.831 --> 10:54.292
[UNKNOWN]: Patrick described the confusion perfectly.

10:55.132 --> 10:57.394
[UNKNOWN]: One minute Lindsey would describe frightening thoughts.

10:57.954 --> 11:00.895
[UNKNOWN]: The next she would make lunch for the children or put them to bed.

11:01.616 --> 11:06.678
[UNKNOWN]: That does not prove psychosis, but neither does making us disprove psychosis.

11:07.479 --> 11:13.842
[UNKNOWN]: The prosecution will repeatedly return to Lindsey's moments of normal functioning as evidence of rationality.

11:14.602 --> 11:18.643
[UNKNOWN]: The defense will repeal the answer, human beings do not work that way.

11:19.644 --> 11:21.825
[UNKNOWN]: Now, to illness is not a light switch.

11:23.805 --> 11:27.547
[UNKNOWN]: Now, we need to talk about the medication.

11:28.907 --> 11:31.588
[UNKNOWN]: Because this portion of this case is staggering.

11:32.725 --> 11:46.867
[UNKNOWN]: doing roughly four months before the death, Lindsey was prescribed 13 different psychiatric medications and receive more than 30 prescriptions from multiple providers.

11:47.910 --> 12:14.623
[UNKNOWN]: So the medications that has been named in the court record, include a zool-off or surcholine at a van or a raza-pan, Benadrill, Trasodone, Prozac of Fluxetine, Ambien, Ozzopadim, Rimuron or Mortasapine, Kalonapine or Kalonasapam, Cervaquil or Quitiapine, Valium or Dazapam.

12:18.267 --> 12:20.848
[UNKNOWN]: am a trip to lean and boost parole.

12:21.248 --> 12:27.471
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm going to tell you, some of these, like I said, I know what they do.

12:28.371 --> 12:39.876
[UNKNOWN]: And so often my belief, and for what I've been through, as not supposed to be prescribed to a person that has been diagnosed with bipolar, yet it was prescribed to Lindsay.

12:40.457 --> 12:43.598
[UNKNOWN]: But some of these drugs on this list, especially at a van,

12:44.377 --> 12:49.678
[UNKNOWN]: Trozodon, Prozac, Ambingon, I have first hand knowledge of what those do.

12:50.799 --> 13:04.482
[UNKNOWN]: So the Boston Globe review the prescription history and reported that more than 30 prescriptions involving 13 psychiatric medications between roughly September 2022 and January 2023 that does not mean Lizzie took 13 drugs simultaneously.

13:10.310 --> 13:15.912
[UNKNOWN]: That distinction matters, because medications were started, stopped, and changed.

13:16.712 --> 13:18.213
[UNKNOWN]: Those are just were increased.

13:18.953 --> 13:20.354
[UNKNOWN]: Other drugs were introduced.

13:21.074 --> 13:23.235
[UNKNOWN]: Different clinicians became involved.

13:23.935 --> 13:30.498
[UNKNOWN]: Sarah Quill reportedly reached as high as 400 milligrams per day during part of her treatment.

13:31.258 --> 13:36.320
[UNKNOWN]: This was not a patient who walked into one doctor's office, received one medication and went home.

13:37.222 --> 13:43.607
[UNKNOWN]: This was a woman bouncing through a fragmented psychiatric system while continuing to deteriorate.

13:44.207 --> 13:48.251
[UNKNOWN]: And the prosecution later tried to make a great deal out of fuel counts.

13:48.831 --> 13:51.673
[UNKNOWN]: They argue that many bottles still contained pills.

13:52.134 --> 13:55.156
[UNKNOWN]: Suggesting Lindsey was not taking everything prescribed.

13:55.596 --> 14:04.383
[UNKNOWN]: Fair enough, that is evidence the prosecution was entitled to present, but it does not erase the larger picture.

14:06.072 --> 14:09.066
[UNKNOWN]: Now, what I want to say about that, too, is that.

14:10.378 --> 14:12.500
[UNKNOWN]: I don't think it's not because she was taking the drugs.

14:13.120 --> 14:28.073
[UNKNOWN]: Again, from my personal experiences, sometimes doctors will be scrubbing this medication, it's throwing drug of the drug of the drug and you're taking them and it makes you feel worse or makes you nauseous or makes you sleepy to a point to where you have to stop taking the drug.

14:28.353 --> 14:37.821
[UNKNOWN]: But then you reach out like I have seen in this trial when I believe I've heard and you call the physician again and say, hey, this ain't quite working, what else can we do?

14:38.862 --> 14:46.928
[UNKNOWN]: The way the prostitution made the sound like was that she just up and decided, hey, I ain't taking these peels no bow and now we got all these peels around.

14:47.208 --> 14:50.510
[UNKNOWN]: So this is why she did it because she wouldn't know her medication.

14:50.911 --> 14:52.011
[UNKNOWN]: I don't believe that to be true.

14:53.012 --> 15:00.297
[UNKNOWN]: Like I said, my own personal experience, the person's of what me the name who it is and my family went through it.

15:00.658 --> 15:01.838
[UNKNOWN]: I'm trying to tell y'all,

15:09.356 --> 15:15.618
[UNKNOWN]: Because for this family member, I had to literally step in at points and say, look, all you doing is throwing drugs at this.

15:16.078 --> 15:20.339
[UNKNOWN]: You need to get out of that because the drugs isn't helping the situation.

15:20.699 --> 15:23.080
[UNKNOWN]: It's making it worse and you just put in this person to sleep.

15:23.540 --> 15:33.222
[UNKNOWN]: I don't see anything that you're doing that's making this person feel any better about themselves or not want to kill themselves with the board or not want to jump out of cars.

15:34.123 --> 15:38.344
[UNKNOWN]: So, ended up with this family member saying, we need to switch doctors.

15:39.218 --> 15:44.421
[UNKNOWN]: I've always been hunted by the question this case, how come I didn't hear Patrick said I intervene.

15:45.582 --> 15:53.446
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I know, down in the sense when he goes eventually, eventually, he talks one of the doctors over his own call and he's like, that was right, he wanted to meet him in person.

15:53.826 --> 15:55.407
[UNKNOWN]: But where's the foot in the door?

15:55.827 --> 15:59.209
[UNKNOWN]: Where is the, I'm living with this girl every day and she ain't getting no better?

15:59.529 --> 16:00.090
[UNKNOWN]: Where is that?

16:00.150 --> 16:04.052
[UNKNOWN]: Why you keep so in these drugs can we get one central drug and just

16:04.807 --> 16:27.392
[UNKNOWN]: Do a way with the rest, we've got some of those got to give, why don't we just keep going to another doctor to we get somebody that's not going to over-medicate you because apparently the whole team lens he had, that's all they did and we do have a person that's already facing psychosis of any kind, bipolarism, depression, they ain't already thinking straight.

16:28.453 --> 16:31.633
[UNKNOWN]: They just want to take whatever you want to give them to make them feel better.

16:35.247 --> 16:37.512
[UNKNOWN]: That should be intervening for them.

16:39.656 --> 16:45.807
[UNKNOWN]: I want to give you guys that because like I said, people that I'm the one but come in this case, hey man, I've been through this stuff.

16:46.973 --> 16:50.136
[UNKNOWN]: mental health is definitely on trial with this trial.

16:50.596 --> 16:54.820
[UNKNOWN]: And there's a lot of women that made out there within the son of my voice that knows what I'm saying is the truth.

16:54.840 --> 16:58.003
[UNKNOWN]: And I get heated because mental health people just get treated wrong.

16:58.724 --> 16:59.445
[UNKNOWN]: I faced it.

16:59.605 --> 17:00.245
[UNKNOWN]: I've lived it.

17:00.425 --> 17:01.306
[UNKNOWN]: I've stepped in.

17:01.967 --> 17:06.251
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm thinking a lot of cases if I didn't intervene for this person, this would be Lindsey.

17:06.631 --> 17:10.895
[UNKNOWN]: Don't know if they were to kill anybody or whatever the case is, but something would have happened.

17:14.849 --> 17:26.295
[UNKNOWN]: Now, back to the case, see a psychiatric patient can simultaneously be poorly treated, inconsistently medicated, prescribe too many changing medications and non-compliant.

17:26.975 --> 17:31.697
[UNKNOWN]: Those things are not mutually exclusive, and something else bothered me about this trial.

17:32.118 --> 17:34.579
[UNKNOWN]: We heard versions of she received help.

17:35.279 --> 17:39.501
[UNKNOWN]: She had doctors, she was hospitalized, she had medication.

17:43.262 --> 17:53.997
[UNKNOWN]: No, that confuses access to encounters with effective treatment, going through the mental health system repeatedly while becoming progressively worse is not proved that the system worked.

17:54.818 --> 17:57.742
[UNKNOWN]: It may be evidence of exactly the opposite.

17:59.362 --> 18:03.063
[UNKNOWN]: The defense presented evidence that Lindsey repeatedly sought help.

18:03.663 --> 18:05.143
[UNKNOWN]: She contacted providers.

18:05.623 --> 18:07.564
[UNKNOWN]: She talked about suicidal feelings.

18:08.104 --> 18:10.004
[UNKNOWN]: She was hospitalized at McLean.

18:10.484 --> 18:12.305
[UNKNOWN]: Her family knew she was struggling.

18:12.785 --> 18:15.605
[UNKNOWN]: She told Patrick, she told her mother.

18:16.186 --> 18:18.726
[UNKNOWN]: People described enormous changes in her.

18:19.346 --> 18:22.447
[UNKNOWN]: Yet the system kept returning to a familiar question.

18:23.125 --> 18:24.346
[UNKNOWN]: Do you have a plan?

18:25.046 --> 18:26.847
[UNKNOWN]: That question matters quickly.

18:27.547 --> 18:32.309
[UNKNOWN]: That question right there makes me fear for everyone out there that has feels so subtle it is.

18:32.909 --> 18:35.150
[UNKNOWN]: It's like they shoved away because you didn't have a plan.

18:35.771 --> 18:38.332
[UNKNOWN]: Because you didn't walk in and go, yeah, I got a plan.

18:38.472 --> 18:42.053
[UNKNOWN]: I'm gonna go take 38 and shoot myself in the hand.

18:42.174 --> 18:48.276
[UNKNOWN]: Then you can, then you're trying to tell me, okay, this person's in danger now, we can put him in because the fact, she has a plan, how to kill herself.

18:49.057 --> 18:50.177
[UNKNOWN]: Sometimes with tools,

18:52.640 --> 18:55.221
[UNKNOWN]: They don't have a plan, but then they get so depressed.

18:55.241 --> 18:57.642
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe they see a rope hanging and okay, I'ma hang myself.

18:58.002 --> 18:59.143
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe they remember they got a gun.

18:59.163 --> 19:01.044
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, I'm gonna be a little good at killing a kill myself.

19:01.444 --> 19:04.065
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe they ain't prized by a brand to say, you know what?

19:04.125 --> 19:05.385
[UNKNOWN]: That might be a peaceful death.

19:05.726 --> 19:11.308
[UNKNOWN]: But because the person have a plan, you turn this person who is telling you, I am suicidal.

19:11.788 --> 19:20.972
[UNKNOWN]: I want to kill myself, but you're gonna be like, sorry, you don't have a plan, come back when you get one, that kills me.

19:21.930 --> 19:33.244
[UNKNOWN]: And it makes me afraid for people that's constantly going through this right now, because if you don't have a plan, you go through my place, they can just turn your way.

19:33.544 --> 19:34.245
[UNKNOWN]: And that's not right.

19:35.722 --> 19:44.591
[UNKNOWN]: But it cannot become a magic escape hatch where the absence of a detailed suicide plan automatically means the person standing in front of you is safe.

19:45.532 --> 19:53.320
[UNKNOWN]: Someone can be a purely ill with our presenting you with the PowerPoint presentation explaining precisely how they intend to die.

19:54.277 --> 20:06.266
[UNKNOWN]: And one of the most disturbing themes in Lindsey's history is that the people around her could see deterioration while nobody apparently understood how dangerous the deterioration had become.

20:07.287 --> 20:13.251
[UNKNOWN]: This is why I reject the simplistic statement that Lindsey had all the help anybody could give her.

20:14.023 --> 20:28.175
[UNKNOWN]: she had contact with mental health professionals, she had prescriptions, she had hospitalization, the question is whether she received the correct diagnosis, coordinated treatment, and adequate protection.

20:28.796 --> 20:37.243
[UNKNOWN]: The fact that three children and nearly their mother were dead weeks later makes that a legitimate question.

20:39.437 --> 20:42.700
[UNKNOWN]: Now, we need to stop here and explain postpartum psychosis.

20:43.321 --> 20:48.286
[UNKNOWN]: Postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis are not interchangeable terms.

20:49.067 --> 20:53.151
[UNKNOWN]: Postpartum psychosis is much rarer and far more severe.

20:54.034 --> 21:02.497
[UNKNOWN]: Medical literature generally estimates post-partum psychosis occurs in approximately one into two women per 1,000 births.

21:03.237 --> 21:12.360
[UNKNOWN]: It can involve delusions hallucinations, paranoia, confusion, disorganized thinking,

21:12.991 --> 21:21.554
[UNKNOWN]: rapidly changing mood, and Somalia, Mania, Depression, and a profound break with reality.

21:22.374 --> 21:25.575
[UNKNOWN]: It is considered a psychiatric emergency.

21:26.455 --> 21:31.356
[UNKNOWN]: A person experiencing psychosis can still sometimes perform ordinary tasks.

21:31.956 --> 21:33.457
[UNKNOWN]: They can hold a conversation.

21:34.017 --> 21:36.058
[UNKNOWN]: They may appear normal for periods of time.

21:41.255 --> 21:42.737
[UNKNOWN]: They may follow routines.

21:44.078 --> 21:49.605
[UNKNOWN]: That does not tell you whether the delusional belief government or particular act is real to them.

21:50.365 --> 21:54.871
[UNKNOWN]: And that became one of the prosecutions recurring mistakes in my opinion.

21:55.792 --> 22:01.098
[UNKNOWN]: They repeatedly treated evidence of functioning as though it were evidence disproving psychosis.

22:01.896 --> 22:23.442
[UNKNOWN]: Lindsey search Google Maps, therefore rational, Lindsey called CVS, therefore rational, Lindsey knew where Patrick was, therefore rational, Lindsey could speak, therefore rational, those facts matter, but none individually answers the legal question.

22:24.803 --> 22:29.204
[UNKNOWN]: On January 24, 2023, Lindsey and Patrick were home with their children.

22:29.976 --> 22:33.019
[UNKNOWN]: Patrick O'Liter described Lindsay as having one of her better days.

22:33.680 --> 22:40.626
[UNKNOWN]: The prosecution regarded that as important, and the defense we guarded as another example of fluctuating psychiatric illness.

22:41.527 --> 22:44.890
[UNKNOWN]: At some point, dinner became part of the evening plan.

22:45.591 --> 22:47.833
[UNKNOWN]: Lindsay looked up the restaurant 3v.

22:48.433 --> 22:50.635
[UNKNOWN]: She also asked Patrick to pick up medication for

22:52.622 --> 22:57.245
[UNKNOWN]: and the prosecution would build much of this pre-meditation theory around those errands.

22:57.965 --> 22:59.726
[UNKNOWN]: Their argument was essentially this.

23:00.467 --> 23:03.108
[UNKNOWN]: Lindsey calculated how much time Patrick would be gone.

23:03.809 --> 23:04.889
[UNKNOWN]: She created the errands.

23:05.450 --> 23:06.410
[UNKNOWN]: She sent him away.

23:07.451 --> 23:10.133
[UNKNOWN]: She knew exactly how much time she had.

23:10.853 --> 23:12.174
[UNKNOWN]: Then she murdered the children.

23:12.914 --> 23:16.777
[UNKNOWN]: That sounds powerful when stated that way, but there are problems.

23:18.338 --> 23:20.259
[UNKNOWN]: See, Patrick had to call Lindsey from CVS

23:23.000 --> 23:23.561
[UNKNOWN]: She answered.

23:24.341 --> 23:30.748
[UNKNOWN]: The medication request was not apparently designed to send him wandering across Massachusetts searching for some obscure item.

23:31.368 --> 23:34.952
[UNKNOWN]: The evidence showed she was involved and identifying what they needed.

23:35.872 --> 23:43.940
[UNKNOWN]: And if this was all a meticulously timed plot, why create circumstances where Patrick might telephone from the store?

23:44.961 --> 23:46.723
[UNKNOWN]: That does not eliminate planning.

23:47.489 --> 23:50.750
[UNKNOWN]: But it complicates the clean little stop-wise theory.

23:51.130 --> 23:54.291
[UNKNOWN]: The Commonwealth wanted the jury to believe.

23:55.451 --> 24:00.513
[UNKNOWN]: Now, what I want you guys to do is just think to yourself.

24:00.573 --> 24:10.195
[UNKNOWN]: Commonwealth said, like I just told you in my presentation here, oh, Lindsey knew what she was doing because she said Patrick to 3v to get food.

24:10.215 --> 24:11.936
[UNKNOWN]: She said Patrick to CVS.

24:12.916 --> 24:15.297
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, she knew when she was plotting the time.

24:18.188 --> 24:28.737
[UNKNOWN]: Let's just for a second but arguably say the whole trip was going to take Patrick 10 minutes to do, from home to CVS, the 3v to back home is going to take him 10 minutes.

24:30.038 --> 24:36.904
[UNKNOWN]: If she's doing this right, Lindsey just didn't hop to it and go to kill her kids, the moment Patrick left the house, right?

24:37.544 --> 24:41.668
[UNKNOWN]: So that means she had to make sure Patrick was already gone.

24:42.842 --> 24:44.849
[UNKNOWN]: Now, Patrick has already taken out she gets to the window.

24:45.351 --> 24:48.100
[UNKNOWN]: That's already, let's just say, maybe one or two minutes of her time.

24:48.988 --> 24:55.614
[UNKNOWN]: Now, she needs to kill the kids before Patrick comes back and now nine to eight minutes.

24:56.334 --> 25:04.881
[UNKNOWN]: Yet, Patrick calls from CVS and says, hey, all they have is, I forget the name of it, so we just called this generic brand is that cool.

25:05.301 --> 25:11.346
[UNKNOWN]: Now, remember, part of the color was problem too, or argument was, Lindsey also called CVS.

25:12.067 --> 25:15.550
[UNKNOWN]: And as CVS, if they had this particular medication,

25:16.382 --> 25:28.750
[UNKNOWN]: which the lady who tells me I said, yeah, we got that medication in different locations, but when God there did not have the exact one that Lindsay asked for, it was a generic one with sparked the call.

25:29.971 --> 25:39.538
[UNKNOWN]: Now, she stops killing the kids to answer Patrick's call and have a couple of minutes conversation with him while he's saying, hey, they don't have the ones you want it.

25:40.338 --> 25:41.419
[UNKNOWN]: This is the one they got.

25:42.080 --> 25:52.543
[UNKNOWN]: Is that okay now the person that's so personal time answers the fall and then tells Patrick yeah Go ahead and get that one now you just cut show time more

25:53.795 --> 25:58.577
[UNKNOWN]: Because now that you told Patrick, hey, that brand they got is cool, go ahead and grab that.

25:58.997 --> 26:01.077
[UNKNOWN]: He's gonna go head and check out.

26:01.097 --> 26:05.539
[UNKNOWN]: Now, if it's the only one that my CVS here, a certain time today, CVS is not busy.

26:05.819 --> 26:08.600
[UNKNOWN]: So he gets up there, he checks out his medication.

26:08.960 --> 26:12.301
[UNKNOWN]: He gets in his car, he's going to get the food from 3v.

26:12.921 --> 26:14.342
[UNKNOWN]: Now your time is shorter.

26:15.193 --> 26:22.780
[UNKNOWN]: Because since Patrick has now called three V a head of time, the food is already ready when he gets there.

26:23.281 --> 26:27.885
[UNKNOWN]: So he doesn't have to wait 10, 15, 20 minutes for somebody to cook the food.

26:28.205 --> 26:31.949
[UNKNOWN]: He walks in and said, I'm here to pick up this bag and hand in the bag.

26:32.930 --> 26:34.891
[UNKNOWN]: He leaves, comes home and now,

26:37.787 --> 26:39.368
[UNKNOWN]: Lindsey's done killing the children.

26:39.448 --> 26:43.350
[UNKNOWN]: She's cut herself, drunk all this medication with lemonade and jumped off the window.

26:43.750 --> 26:45.511
[UNKNOWN]: If you tell me that that makes sense to you.

26:47.111 --> 26:53.454
[UNKNOWN]: Because it appears to me that if somebody's on a timeframe, if one, they're not going to stop to answer the call to the middle of something.

26:54.535 --> 26:57.056
[UNKNOWN]: And that's what the Commonwealth really wanted Patrick to say.

26:57.076 --> 26:57.496
[UNKNOWN]: He didn't.

26:58.296 --> 27:00.977
[UNKNOWN]: When you call, Lindsey did Lindsey answer the phone.

27:01.358 --> 27:03.038
[UNKNOWN]: And I think she said, you have somebody.

27:03.098 --> 27:04.699
[UNKNOWN]: He said something like, yeah, or didn't he said,

27:10.452 --> 27:12.714
[UNKNOWN]: They want him to say, no, she ain't next to the phone.

27:13.094 --> 27:14.276
[UNKNOWN]: Was then they went ahead with it.

27:14.316 --> 27:15.076
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, see?

27:15.497 --> 27:19.240
[UNKNOWN]: She didn't answer the phone, because she was in the middle of killing the kids.

27:19.560 --> 27:28.208
[UNKNOWN]: But because Patrick didn't say that, they gotta come with another theory now of why this time was needed and why she sent him out.

27:28.689 --> 27:29.770
[UNKNOWN]: Someone's a guy's to think about that.

27:30.509 --> 27:47.635
[UNKNOWN]: If you are time-crushed and you're doing something that you know, you don't want to get called doing or you want to kiss him for they come back or you're going to stop answering phones and you're going to cut the trip short because now you can get the medications they had that you didn't want, but this is only when they got instead of saying no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not the good one.

27:48.075 --> 27:49.015
[UNKNOWN]: Go to the next door.

27:50.055 --> 27:51.456
[UNKNOWN]: Just want to put that in you guys' head.

27:54.417 --> 27:57.898
[UNKNOWN]: Now there is another point with the defense repeatedly emphasized.

27:58.765 --> 28:03.687
[UNKNOWN]: Patrick had previously been away from Lindsay and the children for substantially longer period.

28:04.587 --> 28:05.847
[UNKNOWN]: Nothing happened.

28:07.068 --> 28:13.570
[UNKNOWN]: If Lindsay has simply been waiting for privacy to murder her children, there have been other opportunities.

28:14.070 --> 28:22.212
[UNKNOWN]: Again, it does not prove she was psychotic on January 24th, but it weakens the proposition that opportunity itself demonstrates motive.

28:22.712 --> 28:24.233
[UNKNOWN]: Again, let's go over

28:26.618 --> 28:33.021
[UNKNOWN]: This is what the color was to say and come on with a saying, hey, she sent Patrick out because she needed time.

28:34.141 --> 28:45.747
[UNKNOWN]: I believe don't quote because I don't have to skip to front of me from the court, but I believe it was stated in trial that Patrick left the kids with Lindsey and went on at least a week vacation.

28:46.127 --> 28:48.788
[UNKNOWN]: I want to say eight days don't don't call me with that, but it was

28:54.873 --> 29:19.740
[UNKNOWN]: what they done this because it's what it is and you don't study this case as the prosecuting attorney who's got to put the case together prove facts then you don't what as tell it as an eighty eighty two are she looked at it and said can use that theory because of the jury's really listening they're going to catch on to Patrick was sent on a ten minute trip with she killed the kids

29:23.952 --> 29:33.116
[UNKNOWN]: and left the kids and the kids was breathing and the kids was eating and the kids was happy and Lindsey did try to kill herself, nor the kids did.

29:33.437 --> 29:41.140
[UNKNOWN]: So if this was at the time thing and Lindsey just wanted to murder her kids because of courtism testimony and the prosecution

29:45.138 --> 29:57.974
[UNKNOWN]: was was being a real terror that day that all of us as parents need to be in jail because I'm sure at some point time if you got kids it's basically born in one one of your kids as guys who are really on your nerves and you went and told your friend about it.

29:58.234 --> 30:02.259
[UNKNOWN]: But that's why this woman wanted to kill her kids one of the reasons they came away.

30:02.940 --> 30:17.168
[UNKNOWN]: Yes, because she was just frustrated and tired of being a mom, yet she doesn't kill them, when she has the opportunity that nobody's going to come home for at least a 24-hour period.

30:18.328 --> 30:19.029
[UNKNOWN]: Think about that.

30:21.090 --> 30:26.393
[UNKNOWN]: Now, the physical acts themselves were not the central factual dispute at trial.

30:27.205 --> 30:33.866
[UNKNOWN]: The evidence showed that Cora, Dawson, and Cowan were strangled with exercise resistance bands.

30:34.606 --> 30:37.207
[UNKNOWN]: Afterwards, Lindsay severely injured herself.

30:37.827 --> 30:41.307
[UNKNOWN]: She cut herself and went through a second story bedroom window.

30:41.908 --> 30:45.228
[UNKNOWN]: She landed outside and suffered catastrophic spinal injuries.

30:46.428 --> 30:47.529
[UNKNOWN]: Patrick returned home.

30:48.269 --> 30:49.349
[UNKNOWN]: The house was quiet.

30:49.969 --> 30:51.029
[UNKNOWN]: He searched for Lindsay.

30:51.549 --> 30:53.730
[UNKNOWN]: He found her outside beneath the window.

30:56.448 --> 30:57.789
[UNKNOWN]: Then he entered the basement.

30:58.469 --> 31:02.211
[UNKNOWN]: He found Korra, then Calen, then Dawson.

31:02.972 --> 31:05.053
[UNKNOWN]: Exercise bands were around their next.

31:05.793 --> 31:10.216
[UNKNOWN]: Patrick Lee moved the bands and attempted CPR while first responders were coming.

31:10.976 --> 31:12.997
[UNKNOWN]: Korren Dawson could not be saved.

31:13.598 --> 31:19.381
[UNKNOWN]: Calen was revived sufficiently to be transported but died several days later.

31:20.481 --> 31:23.283
[UNKNOWN]: And there was something very important about the suicide attempt.

31:24.251 --> 31:28.912
[UNKNOWN]: Every prosecution rhetoric suggests that Lindsey's attempt might not have been genuine.

31:29.732 --> 31:35.174
[UNKNOWN]: The defense spent days establishing just how medically catastrophic her injuries were.

31:35.994 --> 31:38.274
[UNKNOWN]: She suffered devastating spinal trauma.

31:38.835 --> 31:41.095
[UNKNOWN]: She required massive transfusions.

31:41.775 --> 31:45.736
[UNKNOWN]: At one point, she coded after transfer to Brigham and woman's hospital.

31:46.536 --> 31:48.297
[UNKNOWN]: She is now paralyzed.

31:48.896 --> 31:59.762
[UNKNOWN]: You can argue criminal responsibility all day, but calling that a pretend suicide attempt became increasingly difficult as the medical evidence accumulated.

32:00.482 --> 32:03.184
[UNKNOWN]: Kevin Reddington hammered that point in closing.

32:03.944 --> 32:10.948
[UNKNOWN]: Why, he asked, did the defense have to spend nearly a week proving the severity of the suicide attempt?

32:11.924 --> 32:37.576
[UNKNOWN]: because prosecutors had categorized it as something less than genuine that theory did not aid well in front of the jury and that is one of the prosecution's critical mistakes and I don't know what's going on because the DA I think it was like team crews and he was there what point is it did you not go I mean did he not go over the ADA's

32:39.308 --> 32:45.631
[UNKNOWN]: You know, plan, they do not read, but they plan to present to the jury, because if I was a district attorney, I'm playing look.

32:47.172 --> 32:48.393
[UNKNOWN]: This woman's in a wheelchair.

32:49.493 --> 32:50.994
[UNKNOWN]: She suffered a Jefferson fracture.

32:51.594 --> 32:52.815
[UNKNOWN]: She's paralyzed.

32:53.535 --> 32:55.156
[UNKNOWN]: She may never walk again.

32:55.576 --> 32:56.957
[UNKNOWN]: So we can't go with this.

32:57.257 --> 33:03.300
[UNKNOWN]: It was a fake attempt because obviously she attempted pretty hard because she has injured herself.

33:04.827 --> 33:05.967
[UNKNOWN]: No, nobody said that.

33:06.728 --> 33:16.132
[UNKNOWN]: So now to the jury, if he's on stand on it, it looks like you were attacking a now woman who is defenseless in that case, he can't even walk.

33:16.912 --> 33:24.495
[UNKNOWN]: You have all these transfusions, you're in a wheelchair, but your case is hinting on the fact that you believe that she fake the suicide.

33:25.336 --> 33:30.898
[UNKNOWN]: You call witness after witness to say, oh well, the cut on her wrist or whatever was superficial.

33:31.945 --> 33:33.066
[UNKNOWN]: So we turn her away.

33:33.846 --> 33:35.527
[UNKNOWN]: Some of the cuts I saw was pretty deep.

33:36.368 --> 33:48.396
[UNKNOWN]: Now I'm not going to say that it was those superficial marks, because I'm sure if you go to cuts or sometime you may be, you know, whatever the case is shaking, you don't really want to do it or you go to cut yourself and it realizes more pain than what it was.

33:49.408 --> 34:00.531
[UNKNOWN]: But no way would I ever have put on the prosecution saying, look at her, man, she on the wheelchair, she had already transfusions, she went to the emergency room, code it almost died.

34:00.711 --> 34:05.512
[UNKNOWN]: But ladies and gentlemen, the jury, she faked it, big mistake.

34:07.313 --> 34:14.795
[UNKNOWN]: Now we have to talk about this part, because we have to straighten out something that has become a badly distorted.

34:19.623 --> 34:28.208
[UNKNOWN]: What exactly do they mean that detectives sit beside Lindsey in an interrogation room while she voluntarily gave a recorded narrative confession?

34:29.169 --> 34:31.290
[UNKNOWN]: No, that is not what happened.

34:31.830 --> 34:35.533
[UNKNOWN]: Did the defense deny that Lindsey physically calls the children's death?

34:35.853 --> 34:36.493
[UNKNOWN]: Also no.

34:37.554 --> 34:45.439
[UNKNOWN]: But Kevin Reynolds and Oboly structured his entire case around the proposition that Lindsey committed the acts, but was not legally

34:49.285 --> 34:51.348
[UNKNOWN]: those are completely different concepts.

34:51.989 --> 35:00.843
[UNKNOWN]: The defense did not say wrong person, they said wrong legal conclusion, and then Lindsey made another major decision doing trial.

35:01.444 --> 35:05.029
[UNKNOWN]: She entered into a stipulation of facts with a commonwealth.

35:05.622 --> 35:22.010
[UNKNOWN]: That's the relation related prosecutors of the burden of calling potentially dozens of additional witnesses to establish matters such as chain of custody involving blood, bodily fluids, DNA, the exercise bands, and certain toxicology testing.

35:22.550 --> 35:24.651
[UNKNOWN]: That was smart defense lowering.

35:25.292 --> 35:25.612
[UNKNOWN]: Why?

35:26.435 --> 35:36.921
[UNKNOWN]: because the defense had absolutely no strategic reason to spend another week making jurors stare at forensic evidence, proving something that defense was not contesting.

35:37.821 --> 35:48.327
[UNKNOWN]: Every digital crime scene technician creates another opportunity for photographs, another opportunity to describe dead children, another emotional blow against the defendant.

35:48.980 --> 35:53.821
[UNKNOWN]: Redington strategy was, we are not wasting time fighting the wrong battle.

35:54.321 --> 35:57.322
[UNKNOWN]: The question is, not whether something horrific occurred.

35:57.782 --> 36:06.384
[UNKNOWN]: The question is, why Lindsey did it and whether Massachusetts law permitted criminal punishment for someone in her mental condition?

36:07.064 --> 36:11.365
[UNKNOWN]: That distinction controlled virtually everything that defense did.

36:12.246 --> 36:14.026
[UNKNOWN]: Once again, I want to hammer home.

36:14.862 --> 36:16.644
[UNKNOWN]: she did not admit guilt.

36:17.104 --> 36:19.446
[UNKNOWN]: She's not one time said she was guilty.

36:19.767 --> 36:25.392
[UNKNOWN]: She has not one time at minute that she killed the children.

36:26.113 --> 36:29.235
[UNKNOWN]: The stipulation of fact here by keeps saying, wasn't that middened.

36:30.016 --> 36:38.424
[UNKNOWN]: If you listened to the trial, it was there too, because Kevin written a step up and told the judge exactly when they were stimulating to was chain of custody involving blood.

36:39.042 --> 36:46.991
[UNKNOWN]: DNA, barley fluids in the exercise bands and toxicology testing, that was smart.

36:47.231 --> 36:49.674
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm going to tell you why that was smart when Kevin read in this part.

36:49.955 --> 36:52.237
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm going to tell you, is that why I think he did what he did.

36:52.257 --> 36:54.580
[UNKNOWN]: Kind of like what I just told you.

36:55.463 --> 37:06.493
[UNKNOWN]: If they didn't stipulate to that, the prosecution was probably going to call every one and they grabbed my mum about the bands and the toxicology and what bully fools you found.

37:06.753 --> 37:07.854
[UNKNOWN]: So guess what that means.

37:08.374 --> 37:12.418
[UNKNOWN]: That means the prosecution gets a continue to keep called all these people.

37:13.155 --> 37:30.392
[UNKNOWN]: And the prosecution, every chance they get is going to hammer home photos of the kids that they're now in their dead state, photos of optopsies, photos of exercise bands, testimony of what they failed, and you know, was this the most horrific thing you ever seen.

37:30.812 --> 37:34.736
[UNKNOWN]: So what Kevin ready to say, we're going to stipulate Yados, you don't got to call any of these people.

37:35.076 --> 37:35.937
[UNKNOWN]: Boom, win.

37:36.297 --> 37:46.564
[UNKNOWN]: Because now, that's let's just say another 10 to 20 people that don't got a call, and the jury don't have to repeatedly see this stuff to alter their thought pattern.

37:49.295 --> 37:50.495
[UNKNOWN]: I would have did the same thing.

37:50.836 --> 37:59.359
[UNKNOWN]: Even though they said that they didn't object, that cut the witness list for the prosecution down significantly.

37:59.719 --> 38:07.081
[UNKNOWN]: And if you're paying attention and watching Kevin Reddit to strategy, that also took a lot of balls out of their court.

38:07.481 --> 38:11.423
[UNKNOWN]: If further weakened their case, he knew it, they knew it.

38:12.063 --> 38:15.504
[UNKNOWN]: Because I believe if they would have checked into it, I think the judge would have came back and said,

38:18.336 --> 38:21.818
[UNKNOWN]: Why do you, you know, why do you go, are you going to object?

38:22.538 --> 38:23.639
[UNKNOWN]: They're helping you out.

38:24.780 --> 38:25.780
[UNKNOWN]: They say, even you are weak.

38:26.901 --> 38:28.182
[UNKNOWN]: Smaller than Kim Redden is part.

38:29.783 --> 38:31.464
[UNKNOWN]: Now let's get to the forensic questions.

38:32.444 --> 38:35.886
[UNKNOWN]: Because they were nevertheless forensic issues worth discussing.

38:36.787 --> 38:44.511
[UNKNOWN]: A forensic witness testified that investigators did not recover viable fingerprints from either the knife or the exercise bands.

38:45.489 --> 38:50.713
[UNKNOWN]: That fact generated enormous internet speculation, but fingerprints are funny evidence.

38:51.493 --> 38:54.335
[UNKNOWN]: No usable print does not mean nobody touched this.

38:55.116 --> 39:02.161
[UNKNOWN]: Surfaces, materials, pressure, movement, contamination, and handling all matter.

39:02.941 --> 39:07.665
[UNKNOWN]: The absence of a usable fingerprint cannot magically identify somebody else.

39:08.865 --> 39:11.067
[UNKNOWN]: The here is why I think investigators deserve school.

39:12.115 --> 39:16.980
[UNKNOWN]: If physical evidence contains ambiguities, investigate them.

39:17.761 --> 39:23.446
[UNKNOWN]: Do not reverse engineer every ambiguity and to support for the person you have already cited as responsible.

39:24.127 --> 39:29.512
[UNKNOWN]: The bands had been handled by Patrick while he desperately removed them and attempted to save his children.

39:30.493 --> 39:32.115
[UNKNOWN]: First responders entered the scene.

39:32.854 --> 39:36.075
[UNKNOWN]: The physical evidence moved through an emergency environment.

39:36.655 --> 39:38.355
[UNKNOWN]: This was not a sealed laboratory.

39:39.036 --> 39:45.497
[UNKNOWN]: So when people say there were no Lindsey fingerprints, therefore Patrick did it, I cannot make that jump.

39:46.097 --> 39:47.678
[UNKNOWN]: The evidence does not support it.

39:48.218 --> 39:56.960
[UNKNOWN]: But I also understand why people asked why supposedly the definitive physical proof against Lindsey was less definitive than expected.

39:57.871 --> 39:59.354
[UNKNOWN]: I gave you the legal version now.

39:59.374 --> 40:01.037
[UNKNOWN]: Let me tell you what my opinion is.

40:01.778 --> 40:02.399
[UNKNOWN]: It is funny.

40:02.640 --> 40:08.290
[UNKNOWN]: Yes, I cannot make that jealousy packet did it, only because there's no evidence that he did it.

40:08.310 --> 40:10.354
[UNKNOWN]: What is fishy?

40:12.008 --> 40:15.170
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, I don't care what anybody says.

40:15.370 --> 40:17.971
[UNKNOWN]: I have covered a whole lot of true crime in my life.

40:18.411 --> 40:24.955
[UNKNOWN]: And since doing these podcasts in 10 years, I've covered a lot more from some of the most heinous crime scenes.

40:24.975 --> 40:33.700
[UNKNOWN]: Some of the most bloody is the one thing that was always able to pull off because they used was the fingerprint of the person we entered the life.

40:35.348 --> 40:38.150
[UNKNOWN]: Now, if she wore gloves, okay, you got one.

40:38.190 --> 40:40.451
[UNKNOWN]: But there was no gloves on Lindsey's hands.

40:40.911 --> 40:42.132
[UNKNOWN]: None has been reported.

40:42.492 --> 40:44.493
[UNKNOWN]: Part of it didn't find her with gloves on outside.

40:44.793 --> 40:47.155
[UNKNOWN]: She didn't go into the hospital gloves, no gloves.

40:47.235 --> 40:54.639
[UNKNOWN]: But yet, the knife or the exercise bands has their her DNA on it.

40:55.539 --> 40:56.200
[UNKNOWN]: And sorry.

40:57.353 --> 41:02.137
[UNKNOWN]: Missed me with the theory, well, he had to take their bears around his kids next to his fingers, they're going to be on him.

41:02.197 --> 41:03.078
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, I get you that.

41:03.598 --> 41:11.164
[UNKNOWN]: But the fingerprints should have been on this specific area of that exercise band.

41:12.325 --> 41:23.093
[UNKNOWN]: If Lindsay is using that to strangle these kids, her DNA should have been on those handles that she's using to pull or whatever the part of the rope is, they found it, none.

41:25.927 --> 41:27.728
[UNKNOWN]: There is no fingerprints.

41:28.568 --> 41:37.851
[UNKNOWN]: These are things that you have to think about, which is fitting, because our next part is going to be talking about Patrick Clancy.

41:38.831 --> 41:40.972
[UNKNOWN]: And I do want to be extremely precise on this.

41:42.233 --> 41:52.096
[UNKNOWN]: There has been a flood of social media content accusing Patrick Clancy of killing his children, participating in their deaths, conspiracy against Lindsay, having

41:56.095 --> 41:59.216
[UNKNOWN]: those are extraordinarily serious accusations.

41:59.896 --> 42:04.298
[UNKNOWN]: There is currently no established evidence proving Patrick participated in these deaths.

42:05.078 --> 42:06.638
[UNKNOWN]: He has never been charged.

42:07.179 --> 42:09.819
[UNKNOWN]: The defense did not accuse him of killing the children.

42:10.500 --> 42:14.181
[UNKNOWN]: Kevin Revinsen did not stand before the jury say Patrick did it.

42:14.801 --> 42:17.742
[UNKNOWN]: That matters, but there is a different question.

42:18.820 --> 42:27.083
[UNKNOWN]: was Patrick investigating with the level of skepticism, police ordinarily applied to a spouse at the center of a triple child death scene.

42:28.163 --> 42:29.903
[UNKNOWN]: That was fair to ask.

42:30.584 --> 42:35.625
[UNKNOWN]: And right in the repeatedly attacked what he believed was total vision in the investigation.

42:36.405 --> 42:44.668
[UNKNOWN]: Patrick himself testified that after the killings, he later brought a Disney prescription bottles to the district attorneys office in a CVS bag.

42:45.726 --> 42:53.869
[UNKNOWN]: police that have recently found four prescription bottles in the kitchen cabinet, a Disney bottles arrived later through Patrick and an attorney.

42:54.529 --> 42:55.430
[UNKNOWN]: That is a fact.

42:56.050 --> 43:04.093
[UNKNOWN]: It is not proof of wrongdoing, but defense attorneys are allowed to ask questions about evidence entering an investigation after the scene.

43:05.533 --> 43:07.994
[UNKNOWN]: Then there was the internet obsession over shoes.

43:08.875 --> 43:13.816
[UNKNOWN]: Images reportedly appear to show Patrick wearing different footwear and different locations

43:15.951 --> 43:20.094
[UNKNOWN]: that produced theories that he changed shoes to conceal evidence.

43:20.194 --> 43:24.757
[UNKNOWN]: Now I have not found reliable travel evidence establishing that interpretation.

43:25.697 --> 43:29.680
[UNKNOWN]: A change in footwear assuming there was one does not establish homicide.

43:30.461 --> 43:32.262
[UNKNOWN]: Then there is Lindsey's body temperature.

43:33.022 --> 43:39.807
[UNKNOWN]: There has been intense online discussion about reports of an unusually low temperature after she was found outside.

43:40.722 --> 43:51.270
[UNKNOWN]: people have used calculations involving ambient temperature and hypothermia to argue that she must have been outside longer than the prosecution timeline permit.

43:52.051 --> 43:54.192
[UNKNOWN]: That is an interesting question.

43:55.173 --> 44:04.380
[UNKNOWN]: But body temperature, reconstruction is not something I am going to present as a home thermometer equation trauma shock

44:07.723 --> 44:12.564
[UNKNOWN]: measurement method, medical intervention, all can matter.

44:13.384 --> 44:14.485
[UNKNOWN]: Then we have the knife.

44:16.045 --> 44:23.107
[UNKNOWN]: The knife used in Lindsey's cell arm became an important exhibit in George specifically asked to see it during deliberations.

44:23.747 --> 44:26.408
[UNKNOWN]: Again, no usable fingerprint does not prove pattern handle them.

44:27.028 --> 44:28.668
[UNKNOWN]: Then there is Apple Watch data.

44:29.408 --> 44:31.669
[UNKNOWN]: A commonwealth digital expert Ian Whiffin

44:35.665 --> 44:37.628
[UNKNOWN]: heart rate and elevation.

44:39.149 --> 44:50.083
[UNKNOWN]: Now I'm going to challenge parts of that testimony separately because some of the conclusions people have drawn from Apple Watch to limitry misunderstand what the device actually recores.

44:50.843 --> 44:54.428
[UNKNOWN]: And Apple Watch is not a continuous forensic motion capture system.

44:55.159 --> 45:04.064
[UNKNOWN]: A change in elevation estimate is not the same thing as the security cameras showing a person walking up a particular staircase out of a particular second.

45:04.764 --> 45:10.468
[UNKNOWN]: Health and motion data have simply behavior, sensor limitations, and interpretation issues.

45:11.008 --> 45:13.389
[UNKNOWN]: So those records can contribute to a timeline.

45:13.869 --> 45:15.170
[UNKNOWN]: They should not become magic.

45:15.730 --> 45:18.252
[UNKNOWN]: And then comes one of the biggest Patrick questions.

45:19.172 --> 45:26.717
[UNKNOWN]: If police were certain Lindsey were as responsible, almost immediately, how thoroughly did they test alternative possibility.

45:26.917 --> 45:30.379
[UNKNOWN]: Redden just complained was not that he had proved Patrick killed anyone.

45:31.199 --> 45:36.843
[UNKNOWN]: As complaint was that investigators locked until Lindsey so rapidly that they stopped asking broader questions.

45:37.743 --> 45:39.765
[UNKNOWN]: There's a major difference between those statements.

45:40.505 --> 45:47.049
[UNKNOWN]: And I'm going to stay on the evidence because accusing a green father of murdering his children without proof would be irresponsible.

45:48.091 --> 45:58.602
[UNKNOWN]: Question the investigation, question the consistencies, question the timeline, question the evidence handling, whatever it has to come before accusation.

45:59.431 --> 46:04.912
[UNKNOWN]: Let's go with that a little bit and again, I'm not going to say Patrick Classic, you'll just get it because I have no evidence of that.

46:05.373 --> 46:06.453
[UNKNOWN]: And yeah, that's doable.

46:06.513 --> 46:19.596
[UNKNOWN]: If I go say, Patrick Classic, you'll just get it because there's lawyers already one on the tangent, which also kind of gives me a little bit into whether we believe him and everything he says, because as lawyers threaten to sue people and everything else, here's what I am going to say.

46:19.636 --> 46:20.636
[UNKNOWN]: Fringal press is an issue.

46:22.377 --> 46:26.578
[UNKNOWN]: Patrick, things even what some people say was at home at the time, I believe Calon was revived.

46:27.568 --> 46:29.269
[UNKNOWN]: But Lindsey was still outside the window.

46:32.872 --> 46:35.393
[UNKNOWN]: Do you know how long it takes a body to get down to 88 degrees?

46:37.415 --> 46:41.377
[UNKNOWN]: But changing of shoe thing, now we got people changing their mindset.

46:41.477 --> 46:43.439
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, well, you know, but changing the shoe don't mean nothing.

46:43.479 --> 46:44.439
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, come on, people.

46:45.340 --> 46:48.062
[UNKNOWN]: There was no report in testimony that says he went back home.

46:48.902 --> 46:52.585
[UNKNOWN]: There was no report in testimony that says that he changed his shoes in the car.

46:53.528 --> 46:58.833
[UNKNOWN]: There was no reported testimony that said, he had to change his shoes because of one thing or the other.

46:59.954 --> 47:01.115
[UNKNOWN]: Patrick Clancy walks in.

47:01.155 --> 47:06.620
[UNKNOWN]: I believe CVS went one per shoes and I believe 3v when another pair of shoes.

47:08.102 --> 47:13.427
[UNKNOWN]: Then they're going to go off of the Apple Watch timeline to try to dispute that.

47:14.748 --> 47:17.571
[UNKNOWN]: Now, here's why I'm going to even challenge wasn't they Ian Whiffin?

47:19.552 --> 47:22.754
[UNKNOWN]: Now, he's paid just to be your forensic dude, right?

47:22.814 --> 47:27.896
[UNKNOWN]: So he's paid just to go into these devices and extract what is there.

47:28.957 --> 47:30.838
[UNKNOWN]: He really paid to know how it works.

47:31.418 --> 47:41.683
[UNKNOWN]: He has no little bit of how it works to do his job, but I'm telling you from someone who worked for Apple over eight and a half years, and with some of who wears an Apple watch, we literally daily, he was off.

47:41.923 --> 47:43.184
[UNKNOWN]: Let me get you the part he was off on.

47:44.460 --> 47:54.588
[UNKNOWN]: I believe at one point, the prosecution asks what the data be different between the watch and the phone, his answer was no difference.

47:55.389 --> 47:55.829
[UNKNOWN]: Wrong.

47:57.611 --> 48:08.700
[UNKNOWN]: If you have an upper watch, and this is the one thing they did not stay in trial, no one asks what kind of upper watch she had, no one asks is the upper watch was

48:13.278 --> 48:17.519
[UNKNOWN]: because he says the information between the watch and the phone would be the same.

48:19.980 --> 48:33.763
[UNKNOWN]: If your watch is not sailor data, and if your watch is known the same Wi-Fi connection, if you have your watch charging and you have your phone on you,

48:34.896 --> 48:43.358
[UNKNOWN]: Now, the way it's supposed to work, where I don't think it does all the time is where it is supposed to be in the same Wi-Fi, then it's your all merge up at some point and it'd be the same information.

48:44.438 --> 48:59.561
[UNKNOWN]: I could tell you from experience, that ain't true all the time, because I've taken my phone, went to the bathroom in the middle of night and left my watch charging, came back the next day when I woke up the next morning and compared it in the information between

49:04.541 --> 49:07.403
[UNKNOWN]: because they were not connected or at the same time.

49:07.943 --> 49:14.267
[UNKNOWN]: If you're watch and your phone is moving at the same time together, your watch is in your pocket and you've got to watch on.

49:14.367 --> 49:16.728
[UNKNOWN]: I'm sorry, you're watching your wrist, you've got your phone in your pocket.

49:17.428 --> 49:18.809
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's going to be the same.

49:18.909 --> 49:21.991
[UNKNOWN]: Because the watch and the phone is moving at the same time.

49:23.112 --> 49:23.572
[UNKNOWN]: However,

49:24.633 --> 49:49.457
[UNKNOWN]: If that is not the case all the time, and you don't have a sailor connection, sailor connections allows information to be reported back, it's connected, sailor Lee, you can do things like your Facebook and all that, messages on your watch, even when they brought out the sailor connection, they was telling you, hey, if you go for run the walks, you'll be able to take your phone anymore, just go ahead and sync a playlist and we can stream it while you're running, right?

49:50.877 --> 49:52.578
[UNKNOWN]: But no one asked that question.

49:52.998 --> 49:55.640
[UNKNOWN]: The information is going to be different.

49:56.200 --> 49:57.341
[UNKNOWN]: I'll go once that further.

49:58.842 --> 50:03.965
[UNKNOWN]: As an Apple employee, Apple is a couple of times a year runs health challenges.

50:05.305 --> 50:15.091
[UNKNOWN]: They all know we all have phones, but the prerequisite to be in this health challenge, which one of them is called the rings challenge.

50:15.531 --> 50:16.232
[UNKNOWN]: And what that is,

50:17.293 --> 50:21.515
[UNKNOWN]: As you get on a team and you try to complete your range, your activity rings every day.

50:21.535 --> 50:25.557
[UNKNOWN]: You know, you'll sit your stand, exercise, those rings.

50:27.017 --> 50:35.801
[UNKNOWN]: If you complete those rings and you get certain points for your team in the whole nine, but what was the prerequisite that you have to have if you want to do this challenge?

50:35.961 --> 50:36.641
[UNKNOWN]: What in the phone?

50:38.682 --> 50:40.583
[UNKNOWN]: They said you must have an Apple Watch.

50:41.773 --> 50:54.077
[UNKNOWN]: That's the data in which the test went for all the contests went from because they know that people will have the Apple watch on their body all the time when they don't have their phone.

50:54.577 --> 51:04.880
[UNKNOWN]: Therefore, making the phone inaccurate in steps, Apple themselves don't go off a phone data when they're doing certified contests.

51:05.080 --> 51:06.261
[UNKNOWN]: I just told you that.

51:11.398 --> 51:15.419
[UNKNOWN]: So I will go and begin with with any day and challenge that.

51:15.439 --> 51:22.542
[UNKNOWN]: He called me next birthday because I wear one, but because the question was was Lindsey's watch moving with Patrick.

51:22.722 --> 51:25.383
[UNKNOWN]: It's believed that Patrick took Lindsey's watch.

51:26.732 --> 51:40.842
[UNKNOWN]: And if Patrick did take Lindsey's watch with him to CVS and 3v and any play sells that data from the watch is going to be different than the data from the phone because she had the phone at home.

51:41.302 --> 51:50.429
[UNKNOWN]: So whatever step she's taking at the house is going to get recorded to the phone, not the watch because she's not wearing the watch.

51:51.950 --> 51:54.692
[UNKNOWN]: Again, prosecutions and digging these things where they put people on stands.

51:56.637 --> 51:58.599
[UNKNOWN]: The other one was there was no total investigation.

52:01.761 --> 52:04.924
[UNKNOWN]: If you guys don't think about true crime or something like this happens.

52:06.205 --> 52:14.612
[UNKNOWN]: The husband, the boyfriend, whoever is just a never-get-other, is the first one's to be questioned.

52:14.652 --> 52:22.058
[UNKNOWN]: Man, you scrutinize up and down because you have the biggest motive for these things.

52:22.799 --> 52:31.188
[UNKNOWN]: If there's insurance policies on you and the kids, you have the biggest reason to want people to be dead if you trying to collect some money.

52:31.288 --> 52:32.289
[UNKNOWN]: This was not done.

52:32.969 --> 52:41.698
[UNKNOWN]: Redington has even said, how will come he had to be the one to go into house that night and go in the drawer and pull out the pill box that the investigators never pulled out.

52:43.420 --> 52:45.542
[UNKNOWN]: Because they wasn't doing a thorough job.

52:47.788 --> 52:54.351
[UNKNOWN]: And the answer to the question, why I believe at least that Kevin Redden did not go open the cues, how did your claims do anything?

52:54.732 --> 52:56.312
[UNKNOWN]: Well, because he's smarter than that.

52:58.013 --> 52:59.694
[UNKNOWN]: But he did in so many ways.

53:00.334 --> 53:02.075
[UNKNOWN]: He attacked the investigation.

53:02.716 --> 53:05.757
[UNKNOWN]: He asked how come Lindsay was the one that was home to end on.

53:06.197 --> 53:09.959
[UNKNOWN]: We between the last people was my client, the one that was home then on.

53:09.999 --> 53:12.621
[UNKNOWN]: What he's saying is, hey, she had a husband that was here.

53:12.701 --> 53:14.161
[UNKNOWN]: Why did you guys not talk to him?

53:14.782 --> 53:17.123
[UNKNOWN]: Why did you guys not thoroughly do an investigation on him?

53:18.352 --> 53:22.314
[UNKNOWN]: Now, do I believe Cameron has think that he had anything to do with it?

53:22.915 --> 53:26.357
[UNKNOWN]: Well, I'm just going to take what he said if he came out after the Hungary.

53:28.378 --> 53:30.879
[UNKNOWN]: They asked him about Patrick and he tried to be professional.

53:30.899 --> 53:31.640
[UNKNOWN]: Like, I am here.

53:31.660 --> 53:34.622
[UNKNOWN]: You know, hey, he came, he testified.

53:34.682 --> 53:36.523
[UNKNOWN]: He said what he said it is, what it is.

53:37.123 --> 53:40.785
[UNKNOWN]: And then somebody pointed to Kim out and said, what did you think he had anything to do with it?

53:40.805 --> 53:44.447
[UNKNOWN]: Something to that nature and Cameron just said, I'm going to defer that comment

53:47.016 --> 53:48.497
[UNKNOWN]: Do I think Patrick Clancy did it?

53:48.658 --> 53:50.399
[UNKNOWN]: I have to hold my pen in myself.

53:51.140 --> 53:56.505
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know if he did it, but I believe in our opinion from what I'm seeing in evidence.

53:56.565 --> 53:59.087
[UNKNOWN]: He has something to do with it.

53:59.908 --> 54:03.851
[UNKNOWN]: Just don't know what, so I can't accuse him of that.

54:04.312 --> 54:05.973
[UNKNOWN]: And then the affair thing came up.

54:06.414 --> 54:07.695
[UNKNOWN]: I believe he was having a affair.

54:08.504 --> 54:18.530
[UNKNOWN]: I believe every time he went to New York, he was having the affair with that woman because the woman he's not married to, they got married way too quick at all this happened and now they have their own child.

54:19.570 --> 54:29.052
[UNKNOWN]: I don't think that what was even of his eight months a year, whatever down the road, you just didn't go breathing, you met somebody and boom bam, and you'll be going to be married.

54:29.112 --> 54:33.874
[UNKNOWN]: No, he was already nurturing that relationship while he was with the Lindsey.

54:34.414 --> 54:44.036
[UNKNOWN]: And that's why a lot of other people are saying that they think that maybe he tried to take all his whole family going back to Chris Watts, because he wanted to basically just annihilate his

54:48.941 --> 54:56.948
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, like I said, going back to Chris Watts, you're saying he has to Chris Watts syndrome, because if you guys remember Chris Watts a lot of it, it's whole family, because you want to go be with his girlfriend.

55:00.231 --> 55:05.075
[UNKNOWN]: So again, I can't legally say Patrick Plansie did anything.

55:05.095 --> 55:08.638
[UNKNOWN]: I can't legally say he's the one that killed the children.

55:09.199 --> 55:15.785
[UNKNOWN]: I can't legally say that he's the one that crushed up the pills because then we didn't talk about that, right, Chris with the pills.

55:17.692 --> 55:38.897
[UNKNOWN]: I don't know anyone who ever wanted to commit suicide by peels, crush them all up and then go pour some lemonade and then drink the cup, then take the bottles, put them in a bag and hide them because they believe that's what those bottles were, that those were the bottles of those peels that was crushed up came out of and was hidden in that bag in the drawer

55:43.013 --> 55:57.046
[UNKNOWN]: Just a normal body who said, I'm a kid myself that didn't be a course of these pills because some ones that come on to commit suicide, they want to do it as quickly as possible so that they don't talk themselves or anyone else talk them out of what they want to do at that point.

55:59.128 --> 56:01.510
[UNKNOWN]: Again, I cannot say that he did anything.

56:02.218 --> 56:16.270
[UNKNOWN]: But I can't say based on the evident base, what was presented in President and trial, based on what we've heard, base that is what now of legal matter that is on record, something's not right.

56:17.531 --> 56:23.637
[UNKNOWN]: And I believe that he probably could have possibly did something, we just can't prove it.

56:23.777 --> 56:24.878
[UNKNOWN]: All right, let's move on.

56:25.218 --> 56:27.360
[UNKNOWN]: Let's talk a little bit about the prosecution's case.

56:29.260 --> 56:39.125
[UNKNOWN]: The prosecution team was led in court by Assistant District Attorney's Jennifer Sprayg and Shannon Buckingham under Pliment County District Attorney Timothy Cruz.

56:40.225 --> 56:52.311
[UNKNOWN]: Their central theory began aggressively and then he was controlling meticulous manipulative to arrange Patrick's errands to determine how long he would be gone.

56:59.012 --> 57:09.682
[UNKNOWN]: and then she attempted suicide, the problem as the trial developed the Commonwealth's own evidence repeatedly complicated that opening portrait.

57:09.722 --> 57:16.448
[UNKNOWN]: The state called 72 witnesses in its case in chief followed by three rebuttal witnesses.

57:17.188 --> 57:19.350
[UNKNOWN]: The defense called 10.

57:20.571 --> 57:21.312
[UNKNOWN]: There were 85 witnesses

57:25.371 --> 57:28.873
[UNKNOWN]: the Commonwealth through an enormous amount of evidence at this jury.

57:29.614 --> 57:31.895
[UNKNOWN]: But volume and strength are not synonymous.

57:32.696 --> 57:37.939
[UNKNOWN]: Sometimes 72 witnesses simply mean you call the 72 witnesses.

57:38.019 --> 57:41.581
[UNKNOWN]: A prosecutor still has to connect them to legal question.

57:42.462 --> 57:46.004
[UNKNOWN]: And the legal question was never that something terrible happened.

57:46.665 --> 57:48.406
[UNKNOWN]: Everybody knew something terrible happened.

57:48.786 --> 57:52.008
[UNKNOWN]: The question was criminal responsibility.

57:56.113 --> 58:07.178
[UNKNOWN]: The prosecution had an expert problem, and this is where I believe the commonwealth struggled badly, because his experts acknowledge and difficult to psyche-actric illness.

58:07.998 --> 58:16.242
[UNKNOWN]: Yet prosecutors needed those same experts to tell the jury that despite the illness, Lindsey remained legally responsible.

58:16.842 --> 58:19.623
[UNKNOWN]: Dr. Kirk Helburn testified for the commonwealth.

58:20.380 --> 58:28.144
[UNKNOWN]: Redington attacked his limited experience but posed part of psychosis and emphasized the enormous amount of money he had been paid for his work on the case.

58:28.944 --> 58:32.106
[UNKNOWN]: Dr. Abram Mac became another difficult witness.

58:32.166 --> 58:37.688
[UNKNOWN]: His cross-exemination became so tense that Redington snapped, what are you smiling for?

58:38.008 --> 58:39.149
[UNKNOWN]: This is not funny, sir.

58:40.250 --> 58:45.172
[UNKNOWN]: Judge Sullivan repeatedly had to keep things moving and direct witnesses to answer questions.

58:45.933 --> 58:59.303
[UNKNOWN]: Then came Dr. Gregory Setthoff, one of the prosecution's rebuttal witnesses, by the time the commonwealth reached rebuttal, it was no longer realistically arguing that Lindsey has simply been a mentally healthy woman.

59:00.003 --> 59:07.028
[UNKNOWN]: The prosecution position had narrowed, and yes, mentally ill, but still criminally responsible.

59:08.189 --> 59:12.192
[UNKNOWN]: This is a much harder argument, because Massachusetts places the

59:14.319 --> 59:16.564
[UNKNOWN]: Once criminal response bill is probably raised.

59:17.226 --> 59:20.667
[UNKNOWN]: And then she did not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was insane.

59:21.247 --> 59:24.868
[UNKNOWN]: The prosecution had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was criminally responsible.

59:25.428 --> 59:27.528
[UNKNOWN]: And Massachusetts law is important here.

59:28.089 --> 59:30.249
[UNKNOWN]: A defendant is not criminally responsible.

59:30.809 --> 59:42.832
[UNKNOWN]: If because of mental disease or defect, she likes substantial capacity, either to appreciate the criminality or wrongfulness of her conduct, or to conform her conduct to the law.

59:47.243 --> 59:56.906
[UNKNOWN]: The Massachusetts Model Instructors says appreciate means more than intellectual awareness and the prosecution must establish meaningful understanding.

59:57.926 --> 01:00:07.009
[UNKNOWN]: That is a brutal standard for the common world when nearly everybody agrees that the defendant has serious psychiatric illness.

01:00:08.750 --> 01:00:15.112
[UNKNOWN]: Now, what I do wanna say before I light into the prosecution of one of this is,

01:00:17.527 --> 01:00:33.360
[UNKNOWN]: According to the DA, the Timothy Cruz, when he gave his statement after the trial was done, he said that Jennifer's break and Shannon Buckingham, who are mothers themselves,

01:00:34.817 --> 01:00:42.422
[UNKNOWN]: When home every night, thinking about this case and that their lives have been threatened, I think he, when I came, don't quote me about it.

01:00:42.442 --> 01:00:47.024
[UNKNOWN]: Lisa, somebody got death threats, they were docs in the whole nine.

01:00:47.064 --> 01:00:49.846
[UNKNOWN]: I would be the first one to say this, that should not be happening.

01:00:50.872 --> 01:01:01.357
[UNKNOWN]: And if people's out there doxin or threatening to kill Jennifer Sprayin and send them Buckingham because they had a job to do that they were hard to do, you guys should be shaming yourself.

01:01:01.797 --> 01:01:10.941
[UNKNOWN]: This is not the way to prove that you feel like Lindsey's innocent or that you feel like the mental health system is messed up by trying to threaten someone.

01:01:11.061 --> 01:01:14.183
[UNKNOWN]: It just makes you look worse than anybody that you're trying to go up against.

01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:18.622
[UNKNOWN]: So I'm going to say that that should not be happening to spray and bucking him.

01:01:18.962 --> 01:01:20.903
[UNKNOWN]: And if it is, I'm sorry for that.

01:01:21.463 --> 01:01:27.006
[UNKNOWN]: But that does not take away from the fat that their case was like a clown show.

01:01:29.027 --> 01:01:31.408
[UNKNOWN]: Everyone, they put on that stand.

01:01:32.169 --> 01:01:33.329
[UNKNOWN]: They helped the defense.

01:01:34.570 --> 01:01:40.633
[UNKNOWN]: There was one of the experts that they called them in the Commonwealth that said, what not wrong with her?

01:01:43.333 --> 01:02:03.146
[UNKNOWN]: they were going in about how bad it was and she really had this and they believe she was hearing the voices and they think something's mentally wrong with her but then the funny part came with this put on us up man yeah this this woman got problems you know I think she

01:02:07.595 --> 01:02:10.017
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, I'll put on your medical professor opinion.

01:02:10.537 --> 01:02:14.240
[UNKNOWN]: Do you think that Lindsey Clancy was criminal responsible today?

01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:18.723
[UNKNOWN]: Oh, she got all these problems, but yep, she was purely responsible.

01:02:18.823 --> 01:02:20.525
[UNKNOWN]: She knew exactly what she was doing.

01:02:21.085 --> 01:02:21.445
[UNKNOWN]: Really?

01:02:23.066 --> 01:02:24.848
[UNKNOWN]: Everyone mad was one of the biggest clowns.

01:02:25.328 --> 01:02:26.689
[UNKNOWN]: Here's what I didn't tell you here.

01:02:26.749 --> 01:02:33.314
[UNKNOWN]: Hey, for Mac, according to the new, not long I got this testimony, they say he step down.

01:02:35.311 --> 01:02:43.514
[UNKNOWN]: I believe Abraham Matt probably got fired because Rettington opened up a can of whip ass on him that he could not close.

01:02:45.155 --> 01:02:53.738
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, he was asking questions that Abraham Mac the day before that the prosecution and further digging to say, oh, I read everything.

01:02:53.758 --> 01:02:55.239
[UNKNOWN]: They said, well, did you read Lindsey before?

01:02:55.279 --> 01:02:56.779
[UNKNOWN]: Yep, yep, I read everything.

01:02:56.939 --> 01:02:58.300
[UNKNOWN]: I read everything that was right.

01:02:59.125 --> 01:03:00.165
[UNKNOWN]: Reddons and tellers dad.

01:03:00.986 --> 01:03:05.427
[UNKNOWN]: I don't remember a question to ask, but it was a simple question that he should have known if you've had it.

01:03:05.467 --> 01:03:06.467
[UNKNOWN]: He's like, he knows.

01:03:06.968 --> 01:03:09.568
[UNKNOWN]: And so Reddons like, wait a minute, you went in middle of a murder trial.

01:03:09.929 --> 01:03:12.970
[UNKNOWN]: You just told this jury yesterday that you read this.

01:03:13.370 --> 01:03:14.890
[UNKNOWN]: Did you in fact read it or not?

01:03:15.931 --> 01:03:16.511
[UNKNOWN]: Y'all read it.

01:03:17.231 --> 01:03:19.692
[UNKNOWN]: Then why can't you answer that question?

01:03:27.421 --> 01:03:31.122
[UNKNOWN]: Lindsey Clancy's story and the story of others.

01:03:33.663 --> 01:03:38.505
[UNKNOWN]: So then Kevin Brendan just came out and said, well, we just don't call him a government man.

01:03:40.266 --> 01:03:45.608
[UNKNOWN]: Because I think the reason why the whole how much you get paid came was environment right is because they tried to attack.

01:03:47.264 --> 01:03:51.526
[UNKNOWN]: the doctor that ready to put on the stand that he admit it with transparency.

01:03:52.026 --> 01:03:54.086
[UNKNOWN]: I've known him for years and he's my friend.

01:03:54.367 --> 01:03:56.527
[UNKNOWN]: But they want you to look at it like, oh my god, see?

01:03:56.827 --> 01:03:59.348
[UNKNOWN]: Yep, he's stacking it for for the land for Lindsey.

01:03:59.948 --> 01:04:01.729
[UNKNOWN]: He got his friend to testify.

01:04:02.069 --> 01:04:04.550
[UNKNOWN]: His friend was the one he sent it to the hospital.

01:04:05.635 --> 01:04:07.056
[UNKNOWN]: He's trying to hide his friendship.

01:04:07.136 --> 01:04:18.862
[UNKNOWN]: If the man was trying to hide it, he would not have come out and said, if full transparency, I've known this man for 20 plus years, I sent him to see Lindsey, had to get a quote order to do it.

01:04:19.602 --> 01:04:21.243
[UNKNOWN]: Just won't you guys to know that?

01:04:22.523 --> 01:04:23.464
[UNKNOWN]: Where's the hiding at?

01:04:25.665 --> 01:04:33.309
[UNKNOWN]: Then they came out with this theory of, well, got this doctor told Lindsey to say, I was hearing the voice.

01:04:35.245 --> 01:04:44.192
[UNKNOWN]: because he had a moment of humanity and left this woman who just jumped out of window and reported trying to kill herself, Carl has been.

01:04:44.812 --> 01:04:50.657
[UNKNOWN]: He was telling her, he just said that you heard divorce the man, tell you that, this is the prosecution was.

01:04:52.598 --> 01:04:56.181
[UNKNOWN]: They spent the whole entire case.

01:04:57.165 --> 01:05:03.588
[UNKNOWN]: trying to prove to you that Lindsey Claysey was not mentally ill.

01:05:04.328 --> 01:05:18.034
[UNKNOWN]: They tried to prove to you that she was lucid, that she was controlling because of the fact that she left note for the babysitter on what to feed the kids and how to cube stuff.

01:05:19.215 --> 01:05:24.517
[UNKNOWN]: Again, every parent thing that saw in my voice that cared about day kids and left them with the babysitter

01:05:27.473 --> 01:05:30.636
[UNKNOWN]: or in front of a jury to get convicted because we've all done the same thing.

01:05:32.758 --> 01:05:37.022
[UNKNOWN]: When we've had to leave our kids and some of us, baby, it was even if it was our niece.

01:05:38.143 --> 01:05:40.666
[UNKNOWN]: Hey, remember, he needs to eat at this time.

01:05:40.746 --> 01:05:42.087
[UNKNOWN]: Here's the food for him.

01:05:42.107 --> 01:05:44.169
[UNKNOWN]: You know, make sure it's cut up.

01:05:44.209 --> 01:05:49.554
[UNKNOWN]: We already cut some of this up, but if he wants some more making you cut this up, please make sure they're in bed at nine.

01:05:49.574 --> 01:05:50.835
[UNKNOWN]: If you're gonna give him a bag, give him a

01:05:52.422 --> 01:05:57.387
[UNKNOWN]: These are the same instructions that Lindsey Clinton was given, but she's overly controlling.

01:05:58.488 --> 01:06:05.155
[UNKNOWN]: And she knows what she's doing because she's telling the babysitter instructions.

01:06:06.583 --> 01:06:10.764
[UNKNOWN]: Again, some people that suffers by polar, you work around every day, you don't know it.

01:06:11.044 --> 01:06:15.646
[UNKNOWN]: Some people that's dealing with psychosis, you work around every day and you don't know it.

01:06:15.966 --> 01:06:22.367
[UNKNOWN]: Somebody's having a psychiatric break, you work around every day and you don't know it because they don't always show it.

01:06:23.168 --> 01:06:25.508
[UNKNOWN]: It hits at certain times certain places.

01:06:26.208 --> 01:06:32.590
[UNKNOWN]: They know they have to get through a certain thing first, so they do that and they come off normal to you.

01:06:37.134 --> 01:06:43.490
[UNKNOWN]: So the biggest failure to have all this witnesses of the spending, all these weeks trying to tell you, I mean, what, I think 18 days?

01:06:46.535 --> 01:06:48.677
[UNKNOWN]: But their fault was at all commonwealth.

01:06:48.697 --> 01:06:52.159
[UNKNOWN]: He's been all that time until we got Lindsey did not have anything mentally wrong with her.

01:06:52.560 --> 01:06:56.543
[UNKNOWN]: But witness after witness after witness after witness said they did.

01:06:56.963 --> 01:06:59.845
[UNKNOWN]: And you may end your prosecutor's witnesses look stupid.

01:07:00.145 --> 01:07:03.608
[UNKNOWN]: When they go, yep, this woman got some problems.

01:07:04.048 --> 01:07:05.750
[UNKNOWN]: They need to be hospitalized.

01:07:06.350 --> 01:07:09.953
[UNKNOWN]: When in there all the time, did we post the do?

01:07:11.434 --> 01:07:13.015
[UNKNOWN]: But she is criminally responsible.

01:07:13.827 --> 01:07:20.129
[UNKNOWN]: That doesn't like that you've been set up by the DA gave some money to say what they wanted to say.

01:07:20.509 --> 01:07:23.090
[UNKNOWN]: Not saying that's what happened, and that's where the comes across.

01:07:25.010 --> 01:07:30.052
[UNKNOWN]: Then your prosecution's biggest mistake of the whole thing.

01:07:33.392 --> 01:07:38.674
[UNKNOWN]: And I may be jumping the gun a little bit, but where it's under prosecution, I want to point this out with the businessman's take was.

01:07:43.591 --> 01:07:56.999
[UNKNOWN]: with one theory, and then because death theory did not fit you, you changed your whole strategy doing clothes and arguments.

01:07:57.119 --> 01:08:03.203
[UNKNOWN]: If you watched the trial, that is exactly what the Commonwealth

01:08:10.897 --> 01:08:20.341
[UNKNOWN]: When it was her time to give her clothes and argument, the first thing she said was, no one is, no, I'm quoting, so I'm on part one, be verbating.

01:08:20.361 --> 01:08:28.504
[UNKNOWN]: But she says until the point of no one is disputing that Lindsey Clinton has a middle of a condition, that he would do say it for 18, 19 straight days.

01:08:29.744 --> 01:08:31.265
[UNKNOWN]: You were saying how she wasn't.

01:08:32.345 --> 01:08:34.026
[UNKNOWN]: You don't think the jury don't see that.

01:08:35.566 --> 01:08:37.247
[UNKNOWN]: As far as I'm concerned, the coming wealth of

01:08:42.072 --> 01:08:42.912
[UNKNOWN]: well let's move on.

01:08:44.573 --> 01:08:50.495
[UNKNOWN]: Now there was one defense expert that really mattered to this case and his name is Dr. Philip Resnick.

01:08:51.675 --> 01:08:55.676
[UNKNOWN]: He was a problem for the prosecution.

01:08:57.097 --> 01:09:03.098
[UNKNOWN]: Resnick is not some random psychiatrist that Kevin Redington just discovered the reason for this trial.

01:09:03.999 --> 01:09:05.019
[UNKNOWN]: He has extensive

01:09:11.830 --> 01:09:14.371
[UNKNOWN]: His conclusion was that Lindsey was psychotic.

01:09:15.092 --> 01:09:18.753
[UNKNOWN]: He believed to experience hallucinations and delusional thinking.

01:09:19.514 --> 01:09:21.715
[UNKNOWN]: And suddenly, the jury had two competing worlds.

01:09:22.415 --> 01:09:27.798
[UNKNOWN]: A prosecution, she was depressed mentally ill but responsible and the defense.

01:09:28.258 --> 01:09:33.961
[UNKNOWN]: She was psychotic and unable to function within the legal definition of criminal responsibility.

01:09:34.741 --> 01:09:36.622
[UNKNOWN]: That is reasonable doubt territory.

01:09:37.324 --> 01:09:42.948
[UNKNOWN]: not automatically acquittal, but unquestionably reasonable doubt territory.

01:09:43.028 --> 01:09:44.549
[UNKNOWN]: Now let's talk about the voice.

01:09:46.010 --> 01:09:51.014
[UNKNOWN]: Lindsay, let me describe hearing a male voice commanding her to kill the children and then herself.

01:09:52.034 --> 01:09:54.276
[UNKNOWN]: Prosecutors attacked this intensity.

01:09:55.177 --> 01:09:58.139
[UNKNOWN]: Why had the voice appeared around the time of the killings?

01:09:58.879 --> 01:10:01.061
[UNKNOWN]: Why wasn't not documented earlier?

01:10:01.861 --> 01:10:03.643
[UNKNOWN]: Why were details inconsistent?

01:10:04.323 --> 01:10:06.745
[UNKNOWN]: Those are legitimate prosecutorial questions.

01:10:07.234 --> 01:10:10.237
[UNKNOWN]: but investigators apparently explored another theory.

01:10:11.618 --> 01:10:17.323
[UNKNOWN]: That psychologist Paul Zyzel has somehow coach Lindsay to describe hearing voices.

01:10:18.464 --> 01:10:19.945
[UNKNOWN]: He denied doing that.

01:10:20.906 --> 01:10:23.749
[UNKNOWN]: Police found no evidence establishing that he coached him.

01:10:24.489 --> 01:10:32.977
[UNKNOWN]: And Zyzel testified that when Lindsay later spoke with Patrick using his phone to describe the male voice directing her to kill the children in herself.

01:10:33.720 --> 01:10:46.167
[UNKNOWN]: This became important because the prosecution wanted the jury's suspicious of the voice narrative, but defense wanted the jury to see the voice as the synopees of the psychotic episode.

01:10:48.468 --> 01:10:55.892
[UNKNOWN]: Paul Zyzo is a doctor who is telling you about who was friends with Kevin Redington for a number of years.

01:10:58.753 --> 01:10:59.894
[UNKNOWN]: That was the phone call this guy.

01:10:59.914 --> 01:11:01.375
[UNKNOWN]: I told him that I was part of the head of myself.

01:11:02.382 --> 01:11:05.023
[UNKNOWN]: But that was stuff that I described.

01:11:05.043 --> 01:11:06.503
[UNKNOWN]: He let her use a phone.

01:11:06.883 --> 01:11:12.745
[UNKNOWN]: And because he let her do that, she talked to Patrick, caught in him, told Patrick that she loved him very much.

01:11:13.785 --> 01:11:18.666
[UNKNOWN]: But now he's the one who told her to say that there is a voice.

01:11:20.427 --> 01:11:21.967
[UNKNOWN]: This was the prosecution, I want to do the believe.

01:11:25.248 --> 01:11:29.369
[UNKNOWN]: There are several moments where I believe the prosecution harmed his own credibility.

01:11:32.470 --> 01:11:42.153
[UNKNOWN]: While questioning Susan Clancy, Lindsay's former mother-in-law, prosecutor Shannon Buggie him asked about Catholic beliefs and whether murder is considered a mortal sin.

01:11:43.773 --> 01:11:50.175
[UNKNOWN]: Judd Sullivan stopped it, the question was struck, and the jury was instructed not to consider it.

01:11:50.995 --> 01:11:54.076
[UNKNOWN]: Then religion appeared again, doing expert testimony.

01:11:58.595 --> 01:12:06.161
[UNKNOWN]: Just Sullivan denied it, but reprimanded the prosecution and instructed jurors at the religious material was inappropriate in irrelevant.

01:12:07.082 --> 01:12:08.683
[UNKNOWN]: That was not a small thing.

01:12:09.564 --> 01:12:26.098
[UNKNOWN]: Because the legal issue was Massachusetts criminal responsibility, not Catholic doctrine, not whether suicide is a mortal sin, now where the Lindsey's childhood, catechism should have overpowered psychosis, the Commonwealth already had an uphill legal battle.

01:12:26.723 --> 01:12:31.426
[UNKNOWN]: There was no reason to create an affordable side battle with the judge.

01:12:32.207 --> 01:12:34.248
[UNKNOWN]: Then came the obtopsie testimony.

01:12:34.989 --> 01:12:37.090
[UNKNOWN]: Lindsey became overwhelmed and sobbed.

01:12:37.731 --> 01:12:39.972
[UNKNOWN]: A hot microphone captured disputed words.

01:12:40.633 --> 01:12:45.336
[UNKNOWN]: Redington believed someone associated with the prosecution said, shut her up.

01:12:46.116 --> 01:12:50.199
[UNKNOWN]: The district attorneys officer, the statement was actually shut it off.

01:12:50.700 --> 01:12:53.462
[UNKNOWN]: Referring to obtopsie imagery and said,

01:12:56.688 --> 01:13:18.688
[UNKNOWN]: I cannot tell you which version is correct, but the fact that this even became a courtroom controversy shows how poison the atmosphere had become and I could tell you about old ears, it did sound like somebody said, shed her up because they played that from whatever tape that they had in the corner was recording at that time.

01:13:19.571 --> 01:13:25.135
[UNKNOWN]: and to cover this, it ain't just Catholics that thinks that murder is a mortal sin.

01:13:25.535 --> 01:13:38.345
[UNKNOWN]: If you have C said that she was just a Christian or a Baptist or a Methodist or a Presbyterian, the same question followed with a plot, even though it was not supposed to be brought up here, because anyone

01:13:38.945 --> 01:13:48.135
[UNKNOWN]: who believes in the Bible, or in Jesus Christ, also believes that murder is a mortal sin, not just Catholics.

01:13:48.196 --> 01:13:50.558
[UNKNOWN]: Then we get to the prosecutions, close and arguments.

01:13:51.439 --> 01:13:58.187
[UNKNOWN]: When Jennifer Spray stood for closing arguments and something significant happened, the prosecutions presentation became simpler.

01:13:59.009 --> 01:14:04.514
[UNKNOWN]: Lindsey was now mentally ill like I said earlier, there were no longer seriously fighting that.

01:14:05.134 --> 01:14:10.519
[UNKNOWN]: Instead, spraying argued that mental illness does not equal legal insanity.

01:14:11.339 --> 01:14:11.800
[UNKNOWN]: Correct.

01:14:12.448 --> 01:14:15.890
[UNKNOWN]: She argued Lindsey planned the killings beginning around four o'clock.

01:14:16.371 --> 01:14:18.252
[UNKNOWN]: She focused on the restaurant search.

01:14:18.732 --> 01:14:19.853
[UNKNOWN]: The CVS called.

01:14:20.714 --> 01:14:24.957
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, the exercise bands, the alleged order of events.

01:14:25.677 --> 01:14:31.321
[UNKNOWN]: And she argued Lindsey wanted to end her misery and decided the children had to die with her.

01:14:32.158 --> 01:14:36.100
[UNKNOWN]: Brake told the jury in substance that mothers sometimes kill their children.

01:14:36.721 --> 01:14:42.724
[UNKNOWN]: She argued Lindsey was not happy about it, but believed it was what she had to do to end her misery.

01:14:43.645 --> 01:14:47.247
[UNKNOWN]: And that to me was a dangerous argument for the commonwealth.

01:14:47.784 --> 01:14:58.808
[UNKNOWN]: Because once you say, she believes she had to kill her children in order to end her own suffering, you are walking awfully close to the psychological territory.

01:14:59.148 --> 01:15:02.869
[UNKNOWN]: The defense has spent five weeks describing.

01:15:04.210 --> 01:15:06.430
[UNKNOWN]: The state wanted to sound rational.

01:15:06.991 --> 01:15:13.673
[UNKNOWN]: The defense wanted to sound delusional, and that is exactly why this case depended on reasonable doubt.

01:15:14.571 --> 01:15:18.235
[UNKNOWN]: Sprayg also attacked the idea that the medical system failed Lindsay.

01:15:18.836 --> 01:15:23.101
[UNKNOWN]: She argued Lindsay had not fully total providers about false concerning the children.

01:15:23.762 --> 01:15:30.710
[UNKNOWN]: She suggested that with holding information because she fair police might remove her children demonstrated rational thought.

01:15:31.651 --> 01:15:33.273
[UNKNOWN]: Again, maybe

01:15:34.153 --> 01:15:43.335
[UNKNOWN]: But mentally ill people can make russian calculations inside a russian but leaf systems and that is the puzzle psychosis presents.

01:15:44.315 --> 01:15:45.315
[UNKNOWN]: Talk about that for a minute.

01:15:46.555 --> 01:15:49.956
[UNKNOWN]: Again, I went through this by self personally with some people in the family.

01:15:52.256 --> 01:15:57.457
[UNKNOWN]: And even though they were diagnosed with things that people would think you should not be freshly thinking,

01:16:01.939 --> 01:16:05.200
[UNKNOWN]: fear of children and family services was rampant.

01:16:06.501 --> 01:16:12.324
[UNKNOWN]: So you can say that person is not going to do so I could say because they think about that their kids may get taken away.

01:16:14.665 --> 01:16:17.246
[UNKNOWN]: But now let me give it to you straight.

01:16:17.906 --> 01:16:24.189
[UNKNOWN]: I never write it this way because I want to present it this way of what Jennifer's prey actually said.

01:16:25.849 --> 01:16:27.690
[UNKNOWN]: And it sounded the most ridiculous

01:16:30.131 --> 01:16:32.812
[UNKNOWN]: First degree murder, you have to have a premeditation.

01:16:34.013 --> 01:16:39.755
[UNKNOWN]: She said that up when she was saying that he sent Patrick out to get the stuff from CBS and 3D.

01:16:41.075 --> 01:16:48.178
[UNKNOWN]: And usually you have to have some kind of a motive to go along with that.

01:16:50.079 --> 01:16:57.762
[UNKNOWN]: So the only thing that Spray could come up with when she had to come up with a reason

01:17:00.721 --> 01:17:22.849
[UNKNOWN]: was that she wanted to end her own misery and the only people that was standing in the way of her ending her suffering was the children because you had to take out the thing that was making her stay around so that she could kill herself.

01:17:29.973 --> 01:17:48.605
[UNKNOWN]: Now, if that was true, that also means then that you also believe from day one that Lindsey Clancy has something wrong with her mentally, because what you described only a person that's having some kind of a mental break or slight coaches is going to think of.

01:17:49.445 --> 01:17:56.510
[UNKNOWN]: And to him, it's a little bit more about it, but they want to keep throwing injury against that woman was controlled by a religious cult.

01:17:57.229 --> 01:17:59.972
[UNKNOWN]: And she felt the devil was telling her what to do.

01:18:00.692 --> 01:18:12.804
[UNKNOWN]: But you're still here saying that Lizzy Clancy is so hell been on killing herself that she feels like because the guilt she would probably feel leave her her three kids behind.

01:18:13.805 --> 01:18:14.666
[UNKNOWN]: They stand in the way.

01:18:16.007 --> 01:18:17.268
[UNKNOWN]: So we got to execute them.

01:18:18.530 --> 01:18:21.853
[UNKNOWN]: Now it wasn't anybody ever saying that Patrick Reddenton was a bad dad.

01:18:23.238 --> 01:18:27.019
[UNKNOWN]: So that means a rational person would think, hey, okay, look, I know if I'm not here.

01:18:29.300 --> 01:18:34.122
[UNKNOWN]: You're going to be able to be taken care of because you're dead and you got your grandparents on your side.

01:18:34.162 --> 01:18:38.003
[UNKNOWN]: And my mom on my side, they're going to take care of everybody out.

01:18:38.803 --> 01:18:44.345
[UNKNOWN]: Dummies thing I ever heard with that is what we said.

01:18:46.508 --> 01:19:05.294
[UNKNOWN]: Then to come back and say that this woman was not fell by the medical system, what trial was this prosecution sitting on repeated calls, repeated visits, repeated going to the hospital, hospitalizations, begging people to help her, telling people what she feels.

01:19:06.215 --> 01:19:09.336
[UNKNOWN]: I feel like killing myself, you don't got to plan, kick rocks.

01:19:10.339 --> 01:19:13.380
[UNKNOWN]: Call the doctor and say, hey, this medicine not work in it.

01:19:13.460 --> 01:19:17.082
[UNKNOWN]: One of the doctors said, I'm going to vacation in state of course.

01:19:17.742 --> 01:19:19.123
[UNKNOWN]: Don't tell me she wasn't failed.

01:19:21.704 --> 01:19:23.485
[UNKNOWN]: Now let's talk about Kevin Redden's closing.

01:19:25.186 --> 01:19:33.069
[UNKNOWN]: To Kevin Redden to understand this case, definitely from the first minute, he never needed to turn Lindsey into a saint.

01:19:35.430 --> 01:19:37.911
[UNKNOWN]: He never needed to persuade jurors

01:19:40.883 --> 01:19:43.926
[UNKNOWN]: He needed to keep the jury focused on one sentence.

01:19:44.547 --> 01:19:46.930
[UNKNOWN]: The Commonwealth has the burden.

01:19:47.811 --> 01:19:50.594
[UNKNOWN]: His closing argument lasted about 52 minutes.

01:19:51.455 --> 01:19:53.437
[UNKNOWN]: Brakes lasted about 56.

01:19:54.258 --> 01:19:57.622
[UNKNOWN]: And Reddison brought the jury back to the family photographs.

01:19:58.142 --> 01:20:00.365
[UNKNOWN]: He brought the back to Lindsey's deterioration.

01:20:01.148 --> 01:20:20.807
[UNKNOWN]: the medications, the doctors, the hospital, the suicide attempt, the expert testimony, the voices and the law, and then he used one of the strangest and most memorable visual devices of the trial, quarters.

01:20:21.981 --> 01:20:34.911
[UNKNOWN]: Now, he began placing quarters on the prosecution table to represent what he believed were trivial or distorted pieces are prosecution evidence being stacked until an artificial picture of guilt.

01:20:36.252 --> 01:20:40.155
[UNKNOWN]: The prosecution then picked up some of those quarters during his own closing.

01:20:40.355 --> 01:20:48.261
[UNKNOWN]: It was courtroom theater, but theater with the purpose, read into his message was, look at what actually matters.

01:20:52.253 --> 01:20:57.436
[UNKNOWN]: Now whether she could Google or restaurant, not whether she knew how a phone worked.

01:20:58.177 --> 01:21:10.084
[UNKNOWN]: The question is whether the Commonwealth proved beyond a reasonable doubt that this mentally ill woman retained substantial capacity Massachusetts law requires.

01:21:11.144 --> 01:21:14.606
[UNKNOWN]: He also attacked the suggestion that Lindsey disliked Dawson.

01:21:15.447 --> 01:21:17.448
[UNKNOWN]: He called that argument repulsive.

01:21:21.519 --> 01:21:22.239
[UNKNOWN]: that was smart.

01:21:23.160 --> 01:21:23.500
[UNKNOWN]: Why?

01:21:24.360 --> 01:21:36.224
[UNKNOWN]: Because if Redington has stood before 12 jurors and announced an unsupported conspiracy involving Patrick, he could have destroyed the credibility he spent five weeks building.

01:21:37.184 --> 01:21:39.685
[UNKNOWN]: His defense did not require another killer.

01:21:40.545 --> 01:21:44.106
[UNKNOWN]: It required reasonable doubt about criminal responsibility.

01:21:50.905 --> 01:21:52.046
[UNKNOWN]: That restraint matters.

01:21:52.966 --> 01:21:59.170
[UNKNOWN]: Good trial lawyers do not chase every shiny object social media throws into the courtroom.

01:22:00.531 --> 01:22:05.774
[UNKNOWN]: Like I said, when he was asked, he said he wanted to defer from the Patrick situation.

01:22:05.794 --> 01:22:09.976
[UNKNOWN]: I don't think it's not because Cameron will think that Patrick cleansing the thing to do with it.

01:22:10.016 --> 01:22:10.697
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe he does.

01:22:11.217 --> 01:22:12.878
[UNKNOWN]: But that was not what the case was about.

01:22:13.729 --> 01:22:30.356
[UNKNOWN]: And if you go off and start yelling Patrick Clenzi killed and I believe Patrick Clenzi did this and look at this and look at that that does kill this credibility because it looks like that you're trying to now take the blame off of your client and put it on to the children's father.

01:22:32.317 --> 01:22:33.918
[UNKNOWN]: No, I think that there's a plan for that.

01:22:35.818 --> 01:22:40.400
[UNKNOWN]: There's a pillow courts, and if there's to go where it goes, I think you are going to see that.

01:22:40.520 --> 01:22:58.246
[UNKNOWN]: But see everything Kevin has done, if you have a pay attention has been not only strategic, but it had a spot in it had a time in it had a place in it resonated with all of the jurors.

01:23:03.413 --> 01:23:10.156
[UNKNOWN]: So now that we talked about Kevin a little bit, let's talk about why I believe it's the fifth strategy worked.

01:23:11.636 --> 01:23:14.637
[UNKNOWN]: And we know it worked because what happened next?

01:23:15.398 --> 01:23:18.219
[UNKNOWN]: The trial contained 21 days of testimony.

01:23:19.759 --> 01:23:25.682
[UNKNOWN]: 85 witnesses, more than 300 exhibits were referenced doing the jury process.

01:23:29.972 --> 01:23:44.575
[UNKNOWN]: Well, person, the liberating jury consisted of nine women, three men, six of this new jersey made as alternate, and then the liberators began at a approximately 1234 p.m. on Thursday, August 27th.

01:23:45.595 --> 01:23:49.296
[UNKNOWN]: For roughly three and a half hours, they delivered it, no verdict.

01:23:50.396 --> 01:23:52.157
[UNKNOWN]: They returned Friday, August 28th.

01:23:53.037 --> 01:23:55.457
[UNKNOWN]: This became the first full day of deliberation.

01:23:56.317 --> 01:23:57.618
[UNKNOWN]: They asked for evidence, including

01:24:00.451 --> 01:24:06.513
[UNKNOWN]: Then came the weekend, Monday, August 31st, day three, still no verdict.

01:24:07.473 --> 01:24:16.816
[UNKNOWN]: Tuesday, September 1st, day four, after approximately 17 total hours, the jury said this first deadlock note.

01:24:17.796 --> 01:24:23.557
[UNKNOWN]: The message said in substance, after many hours of deliberation, we are unable to reach a unanimous

01:24:29.520 --> 01:24:32.081
[UNKNOWN]: Day five, second deadlock.

01:24:32.942 --> 01:24:35.143
[UNKNOWN]: The jury again reported an impasse.

01:24:36.424 --> 01:24:47.309
[UNKNOWN]: This time, Sullivan gave them the two-year-old Regus instruction, Massachusetts version of what people often call a dynamite, charge, or other places call it the deadlock instruction.

01:24:48.370 --> 01:24:55.693
[UNKNOWN]: In jurors were told to reconsider their positions, but not surrender honestly, held convictions simply to reach a verdict.

01:24:59.409 --> 01:25:01.831
[UNKNOWN]: Thursday, September 3rd, day six.

01:25:02.771 --> 01:25:04.933
[UNKNOWN]: And that is when this case exploded.

01:25:06.634 --> 01:25:11.017
[UNKNOWN]: At a possibly three in the afternoon, the court received another communication.

01:25:11.718 --> 01:25:16.481
[UNKNOWN]: Just Sullivan went to sidebar with the attorneys than something extremely unusual occurred.

01:25:17.182 --> 01:25:20.924
[UNKNOWN]: jurors were brought up individually in the judge questioned them.

01:25:21.785 --> 01:25:25.568
[UNKNOWN]: After work, he returned the entire jury to the courtroom and reminded them.

01:25:29.301 --> 01:25:31.883
[UNKNOWN]: Then he reared the reasonable doubt instruction.

01:25:32.484 --> 01:25:35.426
[UNKNOWN]: And after the jurors left, Kevin Redenton erupted.

01:25:36.287 --> 01:25:43.993
[UNKNOWN]: According to Redenton's description of the four-person note, one juror was refusing to follow the judge's instructions concerning reasonable doubt.

01:25:45.554 --> 01:25:47.436
[UNKNOWN]: Redenton wanted that juror investigated.

01:25:48.376 --> 01:25:49.758
[UNKNOWN]: And potentially removed.

01:25:49.838 --> 01:25:57.744
[UNKNOWN]: He told Sullivan that if the case ended in mistrial because one person had spurned the court's instructions, it would be a shame.

01:25:58.727 --> 01:25:59.648
[UNKNOWN]: a real shame.

01:26:00.529 --> 01:26:11.938
[UNKNOWN]: And here's where I fundamentally disagree with Judge Sullivan, who, while this trial had praised this judge, I've had nothing to say bad about this judge, I loved him.

01:26:12.819 --> 01:26:14.420
[UNKNOWN]: William Sullivan was patient.

01:26:15.040 --> 01:26:21.926
[UNKNOWN]: He was measured, protective of the jury, protective of Lindsey's rights, protective of

01:26:25.123 --> 01:26:33.446
[UNKNOWN]: He did a next-foot job through an unbelievably emotional proceeding, but I disagree with him here.

01:26:34.447 --> 01:26:47.711
[UNKNOWN]: As response was essentially, I cannot sigh with 11 jurors against one juror, and ordinarily, absolutely, but 11 people disagreeing with one is not grounds to remove the one.

01:26:52.180 --> 01:27:00.346
[UNKNOWN]: A holdout juror is not misconducting merely because he is unpopular, but according to the four persons description, that was not the allegation.

01:27:01.207 --> 01:27:10.394
[UNKNOWN]: The allegation was that this juror had reasonable doubt but refused to apply the legal consequence or reasonable doubt.

01:27:13.377 --> 01:27:14.197
[UNKNOWN]: That is different.

01:27:15.098 --> 01:27:16.919
[UNKNOWN]: If true, that is not.

01:27:20.805 --> 01:27:26.128
[UNKNOWN]: that is, I understood the legal standard and refused to use it.

01:27:28.070 --> 01:27:30.671
[UNKNOWN]: Now, yes, I disagree with just a little bit.

01:27:30.731 --> 01:27:43.980
[UNKNOWN]: That jurist had been kicked out because from where I'm sitting and more, a lot of people sitting, everybody's starting to wonder, was that juror a plant, meaning that that juror just wanted to get on this case because he wanted to hang it.

01:27:45.309 --> 01:27:54.935
[UNKNOWN]: Because if everybody would have a guilty, then he would have said guilty because that's where he believed or because now that he saw Let me know what's all going towards a quiddle.

01:27:55.395 --> 01:28:14.827
[UNKNOWN]: He says I have reasonable doubt, but Sorry, I can't apply the law of Lindsay Which means that you should just come out and say that you believe that she's guilty I've never seen the Charlie this where Dura like this stands out and holds out Admitting that there is reasonable doubt

01:28:15.623 --> 01:28:31.765
[UNKNOWN]: Again, the law he doesn't want to apply says, if for any reason you have a reasonable doubt, that means the Commonwealth does not prove in their case, and you have to vote not guilty.

01:28:35.290 --> 01:28:45.072
[UNKNOWN]: Now that brings up with what I just said about alternate and the number one question, I have, and many other people's had about this decision.

01:28:45.592 --> 01:28:49.673
[UNKNOWN]: Why do we have alternate jurors if they cannot replace someone?

01:28:50.854 --> 01:28:56.555
[UNKNOWN]: This is case and point why you have another six sitting outside.

01:28:57.657 --> 01:29:17.852
[UNKNOWN]: Yes, it would have been a little bit of a subback since this juror has not heard anything since the closing arguments and manning with batches of liberate, but what it has been as bad as this guy, you just, you had to catch them up, you'd have to go through and see the evidence again and argue with Kevin Redderton, I think this juror would have said they're a whole other week if that's what it took.

01:29:18.633 --> 01:29:24.637
[UNKNOWN]: So why have alternate if you refuse to replace someone like this?

01:29:24.697 --> 01:29:24.978
[UNKNOWN]: Well,

01:29:27.492 --> 01:29:37.038
[UNKNOWN]: twenty d three says that after the races began of a jurid dies becomes ill or is unable to perform his duty for any other calls.

01:29:37.658 --> 01:29:41.381
[UNKNOWN]: The judge may discharge that jurid in alternate can then be drawn.

01:29:42.341 --> 01:29:45.844
[UNKNOWN]: And that reconstituted jury begins its deliberations again.

01:29:46.624 --> 01:29:48.325
[UNKNOWN]: That is Massachusetts law.

01:29:49.146 --> 01:29:55.250
[UNKNOWN]: So yes, the alternate's had a purpose, but this does not automatically mean Sullivan was legally required to be moved

01:29:56.584 --> 01:30:04.249
[UNKNOWN]: The difficult issue is deciding when a jurist's disagreement becomes inability or refusal to perform the jurors' legal duty.

01:30:05.530 --> 01:30:07.351
[UNKNOWN]: Judges have to be extremely careful.

01:30:08.111 --> 01:30:13.695
[UNKNOWN]: Otherwise, 11 jurors could effectively expel the 12th merely because they hate his position.

01:30:14.575 --> 01:30:15.856
[UNKNOWN]: That would be disastrous.

01:30:16.496 --> 01:30:18.798
[UNKNOWN]: So Sullivan's caution was understandable.

01:30:20.138 --> 01:30:32.626
[UNKNOWN]: What I disagree with is the apparent unwillingness to conduct the deeper inquiry read into and requested, once the allegation became not merely he disagrees, but he refuses to apply the law.

01:30:33.867 --> 01:30:35.948
[UNKNOWN]: There were six alternate sitting there.

01:30:36.669 --> 01:30:38.490
[UNKNOWN]: They had heard the entire case.

01:30:39.271 --> 01:30:40.852
[UNKNOWN]: There was a mechanism.

01:30:43.073 --> 01:30:46.575
[UNKNOWN]: There was a mechanism for replacing if legal cause

01:30:48.191 --> 01:30:52.413
[UNKNOWN]: And at minimum, I believe the allegation deserve certain scrutiny.

01:30:53.814 --> 01:31:03.278
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, I just call Kevin Reddenton to follow a whole motion with their D.C. Of course, what you say now, the SJC denied that.

01:31:05.554 --> 01:31:11.580
[UNKNOWN]: But Kevin Renden fought that because I believe he felt that just someone's got rid of this juror as well.

01:31:12.260 --> 01:31:23.270
[UNKNOWN]: I think everybody deserve regardless of what the verdict was to have a verdict in this case because it was so long and so many hours that that's what this juror robbed them of.

01:31:25.032 --> 01:31:27.334
[UNKNOWN]: And then the number he merged 11 to one.

01:31:29.717 --> 01:31:36.603
[UNKNOWN]: And according to Red Engine and the circumstances disclosed in the four-person communication, the 11 were on the acquittal side.

01:31:37.483 --> 01:31:38.604
[UNKNOWN]: That is critical.

01:31:39.745 --> 01:31:44.829
[UNKNOWN]: This prosecution called 72 witnesses in its main case.

01:31:45.850 --> 01:31:52.976
[UNKNOWN]: Three-vebuttal witnesses presented hundreds of exhibits put the children's clothing before the jury.

01:31:53.836 --> 01:31:55.778
[UNKNOWN]: Presented the exercise bands.

01:31:59.093 --> 01:32:17.478
[UNKNOWN]: Walbed George threw the house, presented digital evidence, medication evidence, multiple psychiatric experts, and after all of that, 11 of 12 jurors were apparently unwilling to convict Lindsay Clancy.

01:32:21.158 --> 01:32:23.479
[UNKNOWN]: That is not a prosecution victory.

01:32:24.419 --> 01:32:26.940
[UNKNOWN]: That is a collapsed prosecution case.

01:32:27.919 --> 01:32:32.221
[UNKNOWN]: become a well-needed unanimity beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:32:33.342 --> 01:32:37.543
[UNKNOWN]: They persuaded one person to recess the acquittal.

01:32:37.603 --> 01:32:41.885
[UNKNOWN]: 11 other jurors apparently concluded the state did not carry his burden.

01:32:43.066 --> 01:32:45.927
[UNKNOWN]: You can dress that in whatever legal language you want.

01:32:46.948 --> 01:32:50.289
[UNKNOWN]: That is an enormous failure for the prosecution.

01:32:57.763 --> 01:32:59.564
[UNKNOWN]: Let me explain exactly what I mean.

01:33:00.645 --> 01:33:05.549
[UNKNOWN]: I do not mean a juror becomes rogue because he disagrees to the 11 people.

01:33:06.430 --> 01:33:09.512
[UNKNOWN]: Sometimes one juror is correct, I mean 11 are wrong.

01:33:10.413 --> 01:33:14.136
[UNKNOWN]: What concerns me is the description attributed to the 4 person.

01:33:15.176 --> 01:33:22.502
[UNKNOWN]: According to the defense, this juror acknowledged doubt but refused to apply reasonable doubt in the way the judge instructed.

01:33:23.353 --> 01:33:34.218
[UNKNOWN]: The defensive emergency filing with further and argued his reasoning appeared to be flagged by his against people suffering from the abilitating mental illness.

01:33:35.139 --> 01:33:37.760
[UNKNOWN]: The allegation has not been independently proven.

01:33:38.781 --> 01:33:49.486
[UNKNOWN]: We do not know this juror's identity, we do not know everything he said, we do not know his private motive, and I will not invent one, but maybe he had in a gender.

01:33:51.926 --> 01:34:15.397
[UNKNOWN]: maybe he misunderstood the law, maybe he believed his doubt was not legally reasonable despite how others characterized him, maybe he had deeply held personal beliefs about mental illness, we simply do not know what we do know is that the four person became concerned enough to involve the judge, that is extraordinary.

01:34:16.238 --> 01:34:18.479
[UNKNOWN]: George normally do not report another George of the

01:34:21.574 --> 01:34:32.802
[UNKNOWN]: something had broken down, and Redington later said outside the courthouse that the other jurors had been robbed by one man, whatever his agenda was.

01:34:34.063 --> 01:34:36.364
[UNKNOWN]: Those are Redington's words in a opinion.

01:34:37.325 --> 01:34:39.006
[UNKNOWN]: Understand his anger.

01:34:40.707 --> 01:34:43.609
[UNKNOWN]: Now, Friday's December 4th, that day seven deliberation is the jurors

01:34:48.350 --> 01:34:50.491
[UNKNOWN]: They had reported deadlock twice.

01:34:51.051 --> 01:34:53.513
[UNKNOWN]: They had endured the two-year-old Registrar's.

01:34:54.013 --> 01:34:57.475
[UNKNOWN]: The court had reminded them again about reasonable doubt.

01:34:57.975 --> 01:35:02.357
[UNKNOWN]: The whole doubt controversy had erupted, and then came the final note.

01:35:03.097 --> 01:35:04.378
[UNKNOWN]: Judge Sullivan read it aloud.

01:35:05.219 --> 01:35:12.582
[UNKNOWN]: The four-person told the court, with the heavy heart that they remain unable to reach a unanimous decision, it would not be able to.

01:35:13.283 --> 01:35:16.084
[UNKNOWN]: Sullivan indicated he was going to declare a mischrial.

01:35:18.562 --> 01:35:23.165
[UNKNOWN]: He requested time for an emergency appeal, selling the gave him one hour.

01:35:23.845 --> 01:35:30.990
[UNKNOWN]: The defense rushed to the Massachusetts Appreme Judicial Court, just as Darya, Argaze, Windland to hurried the emergency matter.

01:35:31.810 --> 01:35:47.520
[UNKNOWN]: The defense asked the state's highest court to require Sullivan either to investigate, whether that identified juror could apply the law or prevent continued participation by that juror until the court determined through individual questioning that he could follow the instructions.

01:35:48.438 --> 01:35:49.898
[UNKNOWN]: the petition was denied.

01:35:50.619 --> 01:35:57.361
[UNKNOWN]: The case was returned to Judge Sullivan, and Reneteen objected again, settlement declared the mistrial.

01:35:58.081 --> 01:36:03.303
[UNKNOWN]: After possibly several weeks of drawers lies between evidence and deliberations.

01:36:04.143 --> 01:36:05.043
[UNKNOWN]: There was no verdict.

01:36:05.903 --> 01:36:08.144
[UNKNOWN]: Now, we have to be legally accurate.

01:36:12.045 --> 01:36:16.870
[UNKNOWN]: amidst all leaves this criminal charges unresolved, she remains to charge.

01:36:17.570 --> 01:36:19.692
[UNKNOWN]: The Commonwealth can generally retry her.

01:36:20.373 --> 01:36:28.621
[UNKNOWN]: The defense is now exploring a distant legal arguments, including whether judicial handling of the juror problem creates double jeopardy issues.

01:36:29.561 --> 01:36:31.683
[UNKNOWN]: A status hearing is scheduled for September 29th.

01:36:33.133 --> 01:36:43.075
[UNKNOWN]: Redington is also expected to pursue a rule 25 type request asking the judge for post trial relief, potentially including entry of a not guilty finding.

01:36:44.015 --> 01:36:47.236
[UNKNOWN]: That is an extraordinary remedy and difficult to obtain.

01:36:47.876 --> 01:36:50.036
[UNKNOWN]: So, this case is not legally over.

01:36:50.457 --> 01:36:51.637
[UNKNOWN]: The first trial is over.

01:36:52.257 --> 01:36:57.298
[UNKNOWN]: The prosecution now has to decide whether they want to do this again.

01:36:59.616 --> 01:37:07.224
[UNKNOWN]: Now, the question that's looming is, should the prosecution retry Lindsey Clancy?

01:37:07.825 --> 01:37:14.031
[UNKNOWN]: And my answer is simply, no, not with this case as it presently exists.

01:37:14.792 --> 01:37:15.592
[UNKNOWN]: Look at what happened.

01:37:16.153 --> 01:37:18.676
[UNKNOWN]: The prosecution had years to prepare.

01:37:19.556 --> 01:37:22.960
[UNKNOWN]: It called 75 witnesses including rebuttal.

01:37:23.795 --> 01:37:42.139
[UNKNOWN]: It had enormous resources, it had the crime scene, it had digital evidence, it had psychiatric experts, it had emotional evidence, no prosecutor could possibly ask for more powerful than the deaths of three children.

01:37:43.500 --> 01:37:47.721
[UNKNOWN]: And it finished 11 to one against conviction.

01:37:48.861 --> 01:37:49.861
[UNKNOWN]: What exactly does the

01:37:54.214 --> 01:37:56.195
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe prosecutors tightened the presentation.

01:37:57.296 --> 01:37:58.837
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe they call fuel witnesses.

01:37:59.738 --> 01:38:01.279
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe they improve their experts.

01:38:02.160 --> 01:38:04.141
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe they avoid the religious issues.

01:38:05.022 --> 01:38:09.365
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe they abandoned the suggestion that Lindsey's suicide attempt was fake.

01:38:10.125 --> 01:38:11.886
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe they simplified the timeline.

01:38:12.847 --> 01:38:15.889
[UNKNOWN]: But the underlying psychiatric record does not disappear.

01:38:16.810 --> 01:38:18.971
[UNKNOWN]: Neither do 13 medications.

01:38:19.652 --> 01:38:21.333
[UNKNOWN]: Neither does hospitalization.

01:38:22.078 --> 01:38:43.223
[UNKNOWN]: Neither do we Peter cries for help, neither does resonates testimony, neither does the prosecutions burden, and neither does the fact that 11 jurors apparently looked at everything the commonwealth presented, instead you have not proven criminal responsibility beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:38:49.477 --> 01:38:56.763
[UNKNOWN]: And that is especially concerning when they defend it is already paralyzed in house in a psychiatric facility.

01:38:58.344 --> 01:39:04.709
[UNKNOWN]: A not currently responsible verdict would not mean Lindsey simply rose down the courthouse ramp and goes shopping.

01:39:05.570 --> 01:39:15.098
[UNKNOWN]: Massachusetts law allows commitment to a mental health facility while the person remains mentally ill and dangerous with periodic judicial review.

01:39:16.004 --> 01:39:17.745
[UNKNOWN]: potentially, for life.

01:39:18.466 --> 01:39:20.947
[UNKNOWN]: So the choice is not prison or freedom.

01:39:21.527 --> 01:39:24.109
[UNKNOWN]: That is another myth surrounding this case.

01:39:27.251 --> 01:39:31.273
[UNKNOWN]: Now I think five things went wrong for the Commonwealth.

01:39:32.194 --> 01:39:37.157
[UNKNOWN]: The first is they over-tried the case.

01:39:37.377 --> 01:39:43.841
[UNKNOWN]: 72 prosecution witnesses before we bottle is enormous when the physical acts are not disputed.

01:39:45.186 --> 01:39:49.470
[UNKNOWN]: Second, they sometimes fault battles they did not need to fight.

01:39:50.731 --> 01:40:00.799
[UNKNOWN]: Religion, whether the suicide attempt was genuine, small lifestyle details, character implications that did not resolve criminal responsibility.

01:40:02.200 --> 01:40:06.543
[UNKNOWN]: The third, their experts did not erase reasonable doubt.

01:40:13.399 --> 01:40:22.722
[UNKNOWN]: When the Commonwealth has the burden beyond a reasonable doubt, competing credible psychiatric interpretations are dangerous for the prosecution.

01:40:24.063 --> 01:40:30.065
[UNKNOWN]: Fourth, they confused evidence of functioning with proof of legal responsibility.

01:40:31.205 --> 01:40:34.626
[UNKNOWN]: Calling CVS does not prove sanity.

01:40:35.506 --> 01:40:38.567
[UNKNOWN]: Using Google Maps does not prove sanity.

01:40:39.248 --> 01:40:43.009
[UNKNOWN]: Knowing your husband's location does not prove sanity.

01:40:43.831 --> 01:40:46.032
[UNKNOWN]: Those facts can't support their argument.

01:40:46.593 --> 01:40:48.234
[UNKNOWN]: They cannot carry it alone.

01:40:48.254 --> 01:40:56.139
[UNKNOWN]: And fifth, they never convincingly solve the medical system problem.

01:40:57.119 --> 01:41:03.123
[UNKNOWN]: The jury heard about a woman deteriorating while being passed through professionals and medications.

01:41:03.963 --> 01:41:09.547
[UNKNOWN]: The prosecutor's answers increasingly became she did not tell everybody everything.

01:41:10.588 --> 01:41:11.048
[UNKNOWN]: Perhaps.

01:41:11.972 --> 01:41:20.898
[UNKNOWN]: But that still leads the jury staring at it obviously ill patient who repeatedly entered the health care system and emerged worse.

01:41:22.679 --> 01:41:27.602
[UNKNOWN]: So now one of the biggest questions of this case is who failed the Lindsey?

01:41:28.903 --> 01:41:33.586
[UNKNOWN]: And this question is uncomfortable because there is no single cartoon villain.

01:41:34.587 --> 01:41:35.668
[UNKNOWN]: Did Dr. Philher?

01:41:36.582 --> 01:41:45.758
[UNKNOWN]: In my view, the evidence raises serious questions about fragmented psychiatric care, multiple prescribers, and missed warning signs.

01:41:46.639 --> 01:41:47.841
[UNKNOWN]: The family fell hurt.

01:41:48.483 --> 01:41:49.845
[UNKNOWN]: I would phrase that more carefully.

01:41:50.599 --> 01:41:55.043
[UNKNOWN]: Family members clearly cared about Lindsay, had you testified about trying to help her?

01:41:55.063 --> 01:41:57.165
[UNKNOWN]: Her relatives were involved.

01:41:57.726 --> 01:41:59.248
[UNKNOWN]: They were not psychiatrists.

01:41:59.728 --> 01:42:05.994
[UNKNOWN]: They were ordinary people being asked to recognize a rare psychiatric emergency, but they were warning signs.

01:42:06.715 --> 01:42:10.559
[UNKNOWN]: Suicide will think him, and two soft thoughts involving the children.

01:42:11.059 --> 01:42:12.540
[UNKNOWN]: So, very insomnia.

01:42:13.221 --> 01:42:32.148
[UNKNOWN]: weight loss, major personality and behavioral change, a hospitalization, rapid medication changes at some point the situation needed someone to say, we are not leaving her alone with three small children until specialist determined what is happening.

01:42:32.948 --> 01:42:35.389
[UNKNOWN]: That intervention never came.

01:42:41.297 --> 01:42:44.279
[UNKNOWN]: Everybody kept waiting for a brighter red warning light.

01:42:45.079 --> 01:42:47.900
[UNKNOWN]: Meanwhile, the dashboard was already on fire.

01:42:49.341 --> 01:43:02.188
[UNKNOWN]: Another point that matters is if Lindsey was simply a calculating mother looking for an opportunity to murder her children, why didn't the act doing previous longer periods alone with them?

01:43:07.968 --> 01:43:12.472
[UNKNOWN]: That is possible, but the defense interpretation is also plausible.

01:43:13.053 --> 01:43:18.338
[UNKNOWN]: The crime happened when the psyche atget crisis reached this account of a straffy breaking point.

01:43:19.138 --> 01:43:20.820
[UNKNOWN]: Psychosis is episodic.

01:43:22.048 --> 01:43:24.209
[UNKNOWN]: It does not follow vacations schedules.

01:43:24.889 --> 01:43:32.691
[UNKNOWN]: The fact that some remain safe last Tuesday does not prove they could not become a cutely psychotic next Thursday.

01:43:33.472 --> 01:43:41.074
[UNKNOWN]: That is precisely why psyche after the deterioration has to be taken seriously before somebody reaches the cliff.

01:43:42.855 --> 01:43:46.096
[UNKNOWN]: Now, here is my problem with the all the help argument.

01:43:46.956 --> 01:43:49.557
[UNKNOWN]: Now, I want to destroy one myth before ending.

01:43:50.499 --> 01:43:53.240
[UNKNOWN]: Lindsey had every possible resource.

01:43:54.320 --> 01:43:54.560
[UNKNOWN]: No.

01:43:55.600 --> 01:43:59.121
[UNKNOWN]: She had many contacts with the system.

01:43:59.782 --> 01:44:01.102
[UNKNOWN]: Those words are different.

01:44:01.802 --> 01:44:12.125
[UNKNOWN]: If you take your car to 12 mechanics and it leaves every shot with the brakes getting worse, you would not say that car received excellent care because 12 professionals looked at it.

01:44:13.045 --> 01:44:15.766
[UNKNOWN]: You would ask, why nobody fixed the brakes?

01:44:16.872 --> 01:44:29.482
[UNKNOWN]: Lizzie kept reporting distressed, her symptoms kept changing, medication kept changing, she was hospitalized, she continued deteriorating, three children died.

01:44:29.922 --> 01:44:36.387
[UNKNOWN]: The system did not succeed merely because there are appointment records proving the system existed.

01:44:39.169 --> 01:44:41.311
[UNKNOWN]: Now, postpartum psychosis is rare.

01:44:46.242 --> 01:44:51.985
[UNKNOWN]: The postpartum of the person and other perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are much more common.

01:44:52.285 --> 01:45:07.894
[UNKNOWN]: And here's why this case matters, women are constantly told, speak up, ask for help, tell someone, call your doctor, Lindi did many of those things and somehow the story is still

01:45:15.064 --> 01:45:16.324
[UNKNOWN]: That should terrify us.

01:45:17.585 --> 01:45:21.206
[UNKNOWN]: Not because every woman experiencing pulls part of the depression is dangerous.

01:45:22.227 --> 01:45:22.907
[UNKNOWN]: Absolutely not.

01:45:23.707 --> 01:45:25.228
[UNKNOWN]: The overwhelming majority are not.

01:45:25.948 --> 01:45:30.410
[UNKNOWN]: We cannot stigmatize mother seeking help by treating them as potential killers.

01:45:31.350 --> 01:45:39.173
[UNKNOWN]: But the rare signs of psychosis require emergency attention precisely because the stakes can be catastrophic.

01:45:40.093 --> 01:45:54.223
[UNKNOWN]: Delusions, allus and nations, severe confusions, extreme insomnia, paranoia, disconnection from reality, those are not sleepin' off and call Monday symptoms.

01:45:57.445 --> 01:46:03.409
[UNKNOWN]: From Apropos here's this, Koran Dawson Cowden, three children should be alive today.

01:46:04.510 --> 01:46:07.012
[UNKNOWN]: This is where this story begins and where it is.

01:46:08.061 --> 01:46:12.883
[UNKNOWN]: But just as for those children, there's not required pretending mental illness does not exist.

01:46:13.883 --> 01:46:16.965
[UNKNOWN]: Just as does not mean securing a conviction that any cause.

01:46:17.845 --> 01:46:22.827
[UNKNOWN]: Just as means applying the law even when the result feels emotionally unbearable.

01:46:23.887 --> 01:46:31.250
[UNKNOWN]: A commonwealth had the burden, not Kevin Redington, not Lizzie Clancy, the commonwealth.

01:46:38.253 --> 01:46:45.637
[UNKNOWN]: More than 38 hours of deliberation later, 11 jurors apparently concluded that Commonwealth had not done it.

01:46:46.538 --> 01:46:47.218
[UNKNOWN]: One did not.

01:46:47.938 --> 01:46:52.281
[UNKNOWN]: And because Massachusetts required unanimity, nobody won.

01:46:53.061 --> 01:46:59.665
[UNKNOWN]: Not Lindsey, not the prosecution, certainly not Patrick, and most of all,

01:47:06.377 --> 01:47:06.977
[UNKNOWN]: furious.

01:47:07.017 --> 01:47:08.017
[UNKNOWN]: I understand why.

01:47:08.037 --> 01:47:14.799
[UNKNOWN]: I also understand why just Sullivan feared invading the secrecy and independence of jury deliberations.

01:47:15.799 --> 01:47:17.540
[UNKNOWN]: That is the uncomfortable part of this case.

01:47:18.460 --> 01:47:19.920
[UNKNOWN]: Two things can be true.

01:47:20.460 --> 01:47:25.001
[UNKNOWN]: Just Sullivan can have conducted an extraordinarily patient and fair trial overall.

01:47:26.442 --> 01:47:30.803
[UNKNOWN]: And I can believe he made the wrong decision when the four person reported that one

01:47:36.805 --> 01:47:57.878
[UNKNOWN]: If that inquiry established genuine refuses to perform the jurors' legal duty, Massachusetts law provided a mechanism for replacement, there were six alternates, start deliberations again, that 12 jurors were willing to apply the law, decide the case, maybe they still get lock, maybe they are quit.

01:47:58.689 --> 01:48:06.875
[UNKNOWN]: Maybe they convict, but at least the process reaches is conclusion through jurors applying the same legal rules.

01:48:07.716 --> 01:48:12.299
[UNKNOWN]: Instead, we got a mistrial and now the commonwealth has a decision.

01:48:13.200 --> 01:48:21.225
[UNKNOWN]: Do they spend another enormous amount of money putting this family, these witnesses, Lindsey and Patrick through the entire nightmare again?

01:48:22.286 --> 01:48:24.368
[UNKNOWN]: Do they try to improve a case that

01:48:28.453 --> 01:48:33.718
[UNKNOWN]: or do they recognize what 11 members of this jury apparently already recognized?

01:48:34.518 --> 01:48:38.422
[UNKNOWN]: There is reasonable doubt about Lindsey Clinton's criminal responsibility.

01:48:39.302 --> 01:48:42.185
[UNKNOWN]: For me, that is the lesson of this trial.

01:48:43.066 --> 01:48:45.688
[UNKNOWN]: Mental illness does not erase tragedy.

01:48:46.268 --> 01:48:49.171
[UNKNOWN]: Mental illness does not resurrect three children.

01:48:49.800 --> 01:48:54.083
[UNKNOWN]: And Mitchell Illness is not a magic phrase that excuses every crime.

01:48:54.843 --> 01:49:01.628
[UNKNOWN]: But when the law says the prosecution must prove criminal responsibility beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:49:02.428 --> 01:49:04.450
[UNKNOWN]: The government has to prove it.

01:49:05.150 --> 01:49:07.512
[UNKNOWN]: Emotion cannot lower that burden.

01:49:08.232 --> 01:49:10.173
[UNKNOWN]: Horror cannot lower that burden.

01:49:11.034 --> 01:49:13.896
[UNKNOWN]: Three tiny coffins cannot lower that burden.

01:49:19.020 --> 01:49:20.181
[UNKNOWN]: not the easy ones.

01:49:20.982 --> 01:49:34.173
[UNKNOWN]: And if the evidence in this case tells us anything, it is that by January 24th, 2023, Lindsey Clancy was not a woman who needed another prescription bottle in another appointment.

01:49:34.753 --> 01:49:39.357
[UNKNOWN]: She needed someone to recognize that the situation had become an emergency.

01:49:40.097 --> 01:49:40.898
[UNKNOWN]: Nobody did.

01:49:41.518 --> 01:49:46.102
[UNKNOWN]: And by the time everybody understood how sick she had become, it was too late.

01:49:48.742 --> 01:49:58.329
[UNKNOWN]: Their mother was paralyzed, their father had losses entire family, and three years later, 12 drawers into the room surged for an answer.

01:49:58.990 --> 01:50:01.472
[UNKNOWN]: He levered a apparently foul reasonable doubt.

01:50:02.252 --> 01:50:08.337
[UNKNOWN]: One would not join them, and the Lindsey Clancy Case ended exactly where it began.

01:50:08.977 --> 01:50:15.462
[UNKNOWN]: With everyone asking how something this catastrophic was allowed to happen.

01:50:20.595 --> 01:50:30.805
[UNKNOWN]: To go along with that, I was going to say this and this is going to be uncomfortable with some people to hear, but I'm going to say it anyways, in many ways, Lizzy Clancy was also a victim.

01:50:32.207 --> 01:50:33.628
[UNKNOWN]: She was a victim of the system.

01:50:34.409 --> 01:50:35.870
[UNKNOWN]: She was a victim of doctors.

01:50:36.531 --> 01:50:43.518
[UNKNOWN]: She was a victim, I believe, as harsh as it sounds of her own family who did not set her up to succeed.

01:50:44.659 --> 01:50:48.364
[UNKNOWN]: Like I said, while with somebody say, I'm not leaving these kids.

01:50:48.764 --> 01:50:57.455
[UNKNOWN]: You're going away for a week at a time sometimes, leaving the kids with the woman that you will self-hat to describe as having a mental break.

01:50:58.176 --> 01:51:04.183
[UNKNOWN]: So, despite what I had to write here, I'm going to tell you, yeah, I feel like the family felt lazy cleansing in a big way.

01:51:06.385 --> 01:51:07.786
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, where's my own family?

01:51:08.307 --> 01:51:17.775
[UNKNOWN]: No way at the stage that some of them were, am I going to leave my kids with that person because I already know what condition they're in?

01:51:18.715 --> 01:51:29.124
[UNKNOWN]: And if I leave my kid with someone and that kind of condition and my kid happens to die, that is my fault in my opinion.

01:51:29.825 --> 01:51:34.849
[UNKNOWN]: Because I set it up that way because I already knew you had problems.

01:51:36.189 --> 01:51:37.930
[UNKNOWN]: But I just decided to leave the kid you anyway.

01:51:40.751 --> 01:51:45.013
[UNKNOWN]: Now it has been said that's breaking, book of him are mothers.

01:51:47.554 --> 01:51:48.034
[UNKNOWN]: The D.A.

01:51:48.054 --> 01:51:52.676
[UNKNOWN]: himself said that he was a father and a grandfather.

01:51:54.257 --> 01:51:57.098
[UNKNOWN]: I myself and a father and a grandfather.

01:51:58.379 --> 01:52:00.660
[UNKNOWN]: So I'm gonna put this to the prosecution this way.

01:52:04.141 --> 01:52:05.002
[UNKNOWN]: You had a case

01:52:06.338 --> 01:52:24.802
[UNKNOWN]: that literally failed, 11 people came back and said, a quit, if this was you, if this was your child's mom or a friend that you know or an aunt or just somebody that you cared

01:52:34.137 --> 01:52:36.898
[UNKNOWN]: having to live with what she did with the rest of her life.

01:52:36.978 --> 01:52:38.879
[UNKNOWN]: That's down to she understands what happened.

01:52:41.321 --> 01:52:42.641
[UNKNOWN]: Would you want to retry this case?

01:52:45.062 --> 01:53:02.251
[UNKNOWN]: Would you want to drag not only the defendant, but the grandparents, the father, the cousins, aunts, uncles, all the family, want to drag them through this whole thing again.

01:53:03.010 --> 01:53:29.740
[UNKNOWN]: where you're going to show the optopsie photos, millions of times, you're going to talk about the kids, millions of times, you're going to produce video and when they all went to water parks in the amusement parks, millions of times, you're going to just keep reminding this family of the tragedy that they're never going to forget just because you need to get somebody to say,

01:53:30.720 --> 01:53:38.066
[UNKNOWN]: guilty and that she knew what she was doing when living people and all the evidence already said otherwise.

01:53:41.128 --> 01:53:56.461
[UNKNOWN]: So since Tim Cruz was to stand up and a mic and say, how compassionate everybody was, it is on the prosecution side and how they're doing nothing but thinking about the children, this would be the time to prove that.

01:54:01.273 --> 01:54:09.892
[UNKNOWN]: That the children would not want not only their mother, but all of the people involved that love them to have to keep living this nightmare.

01:54:11.587 --> 01:54:18.589
[UNKNOWN]: And for those of you out there that says I'm a Lindsey Clancy Bakker and you know I should be taking up a woman that killed her kids.

01:54:19.209 --> 01:54:20.309
[UNKNOWN]: I'll say this in closing.

01:54:20.889 --> 01:54:23.650
[UNKNOWN]: I've never and will never good don't anybody killing their kids.

01:54:24.070 --> 01:54:30.071
[UNKNOWN]: If I believe Lindsey Clancy was criminally responsible and she knew what she was doing just to get away from things, I would tell you that.

01:54:30.111 --> 01:54:34.652
[UNKNOWN]: I would say that and I would say so harassing jail and those who that's followed me for 10 years knows

01:54:37.033 --> 01:55:02.034
[UNKNOWN]: Because I've been through this because I feel members are still going through this because I've seen with all those drugs due to people Because I've had to kick down doors myself to tell doctors to stop over medicating folks Because I've seen firsthand what psychosis does and what it looks like And I've spent more than 21 days looking at this woman in a wheelchair Sit at a defense table and hurry.

01:55:02.055 --> 01:55:03.416
[UNKNOWN]: Expresses her emotions

01:55:04.036 --> 01:55:10.681
[UNKNOWN]: Especially when they call Patrick Clinton to the stand, that woman did not know what she was doing.

01:55:10.781 --> 01:55:14.744
[UNKNOWN]: I was standing 10 toes down on that and you guys don't agree with me.

01:55:14.904 --> 01:55:15.904
[UNKNOWN]: Okay, so be it.

01:55:17.505 --> 01:55:20.007
[UNKNOWN]: If you think of the worst person in the world, just so be it.

01:55:20.427 --> 01:55:22.309
[UNKNOWN]: But I'm going to call a spade, a spade.

01:55:23.049 --> 01:55:26.732
[UNKNOWN]: Every, even in the prosecution side, this is what I'm telling you.

01:55:27.612 --> 01:55:28.053
[UNKNOWN]: Every,

01:55:29.093 --> 01:55:36.081
[UNKNOWN]: expert psychologist psychiatrist said she suffered a mental breakdown.

01:55:36.301 --> 01:55:39.905
[UNKNOWN]: Every one of them said they thought she was going through psychosis.

01:55:41.087 --> 01:55:44.691
[UNKNOWN]: Every one of them said they believe that she was going through hallucinations.

01:55:45.737 --> 01:56:00.020
[UNKNOWN]: The people that knew her testified that she was a loving caring mom, the nurses that she worked with and she were from the best hospitals that there was testified that she was a caring individual and always the first one to care about her patients.

01:56:00.340 --> 01:56:05.381
[UNKNOWN]: And the prosecution side, even though all of those people, I just said, that psychiatrist

01:56:17.464 --> 01:56:33.378
[UNKNOWN]: Because somehow, they already knew that the only one of the prosecution witnesses said that a quote or would be evident, and I think the point was proven because they didn't have to say it, because I love another people saying, yeah, there's reasonable doubt.

01:56:35.600 --> 01:56:41.885
[UNKNOWN]: So, I do not believe Lindsey Clancy did this, and she knew what she was doing.

01:56:43.408 --> 01:56:48.610
[UNKNOWN]: Again, I'd keep my theories of myself, but I believe there's more to put on inside that house.

01:56:49.170 --> 01:56:52.732
[UNKNOWN]: Then what we know, and what we may ever know.

01:56:55.873 --> 01:57:03.877
[UNKNOWN]: But I'll leave it like I always said, if she's putting on an act, this is the greatest act.

01:57:04.457 --> 01:57:11.900
[UNKNOWN]: Since I've seen you in the movie, Primal Fear, and I hope she gets found out, and then they toss a button prison for life.

01:57:13.257 --> 01:57:19.179
[UNKNOWN]: However, on the other end, and my belief, she is not, you know, that is the case.

01:57:19.739 --> 01:57:35.543
[UNKNOWN]: Then the prosecution needs to just drop these charges, let this woman stay in the psychiatric hospital, deal what she has to deal with, and let us put these three babies finally to rest.

01:57:39.091 --> 01:57:39.931
[UNKNOWN]: I think you guys are joining me.

01:57:39.951 --> 01:57:43.593
[UNKNOWN]: I know this is a long one and I know that this was seriously emotionally charged.

01:57:44.053 --> 01:57:46.054
[UNKNOWN]: I didn't make reference to the injury, yet to case.

01:57:46.414 --> 01:57:53.657
[UNKNOWN]: And they're also trying to compare lense classes case to the reason why I started watching WWE at one point for eight years.

01:57:54.057 --> 01:57:56.638
[UNKNOWN]: And that is the crisp and walk case.

01:57:57.099 --> 01:58:00.720
[UNKNOWN]: So instead of going over that here, I've never done either case.

01:58:00.760 --> 01:58:02.841
[UNKNOWN]: I believe if I think I did Chris

01:58:08.545 --> 01:58:19.051
[UNKNOWN]: And then when I do them, I'm going to tie in for you where the, the differences between Andrew Yates and Lindsey Clancy as well as on the white people are going to have crisp and wall.

01:58:19.071 --> 01:58:20.591
[UNKNOWN]: That's a whole different issue.

01:58:21.012 --> 01:58:22.032
[UNKNOWN]: But then we're tired of seeing.

01:58:22.072 --> 01:58:31.557
[UNKNOWN]: I think those are two cases that I haven't done that needs me done on here on the podcast and I know you probably heard Andrew Yates and Christmas, whatever results, but you never hear the way that I presented it here.

01:58:31.957 --> 01:58:33.058
[UNKNOWN]: So we will get that done.

01:58:34.797 --> 01:58:37.060
[UNKNOWN]: All right, guys, once again, thank you for joining in for this one.

01:58:37.080 --> 01:58:38.222
[UNKNOWN]: Those are actually a long one.

01:58:38.542 --> 01:58:43.810
[UNKNOWN]: Well, because this is a whole thing, Godspeed to Kevin Redden in the prosecution team.

01:58:44.190 --> 01:58:46.113
[UNKNOWN]: Whenever it's decided, it is decided.

01:58:46.193 --> 01:58:49.317
[UNKNOWN]: I've given you guys my side of it here.

01:58:51.750 --> 01:59:05.938
[UNKNOWN]: You know, I was Lindsey Clancy and her family, the best rest in peace to these very, very, very precious children really gone way too soon.

01:59:06.399 --> 01:59:14.303
[UNKNOWN]: Let's always say remember their name, Korra, Dawson, Helen, May they rest in peace.

01:59:15.184 --> 01:59:19.566
[UNKNOWN]: I hope that justice will ever form that is is served.

01:59:23.005 --> 01:59:24.727
[UNKNOWN]: Alright, once again, thank you for joining me today.

01:59:24.807 --> 01:59:31.333
[UNKNOWN]: I know you have many choices and true crime and interview podcasts, and I'm just grateful that I'm one of your choices.

01:59:31.753 --> 01:59:36.538
[UNKNOWN]: You have been listening to the only three faceted podcasts of its kind.

01:59:37.139 --> 01:59:43.164
[UNKNOWN]: Be good to yourself, and to each other, and always remember, always stay humble.

01:59:44.085 --> 01:59:46.169
[UNKNOWN]: and act of kindness can make someone's day.

01:59:46.950 --> 01:59:49.474
[UNKNOWN]: A little love of capacity to go a long way.

01:59:50.035 --> 01:59:53.862
[UNKNOWN]: You remember that there is an extraordinary person in all of us.

01:59:54.703 --> 01:59:56.887
[UNKNOWN]: I'll catch you guys on the next one.

02:00:01.072 --> 02:00:03.634
[UNKNOWN]: Don't forget to write, comment, and subscribe.

02:00:04.115 --> 02:00:05.336
[UNKNOWN]: Join us on social media.

02:00:05.936 --> 02:00:07.658
[UNKNOWN]: One link to the link tree has it all.

02:00:08.358 --> 02:00:12.922
[UNKNOWN]: Feel free to drop us a line at truecrimeantauthors at gmail.com.

02:00:13.763 --> 02:00:16.205
[UNKNOWN]: Sound mixing and editing by David McClam.

02:00:16.925 --> 02:00:19.768
[UNKNOWN]: Intro script by Sophie Wilde and David McClam.

02:00:20.568 --> 02:00:23.351
[UNKNOWN]: theme music, legendary by new alchemist.

02:00:24.071 --> 02:00:26.954
[UNKNOWN]: Introduction and ending credits by Jackie Voice.

02:00:27.775 --> 02:00:31.927
[UNKNOWN]: See you next time on True Crime, Authors and Extraordinary People!